I recommend a good reading of Tozer’s book The Knowledge of the Holy. In its first chapter it encourages us to get a right picture of God as our imagination makes way to idolatry. Which is quite humbling to say the least.
On another note, I don’t know much about Mary’s perpetual virginity as I’m not catholic. But I am a fervent believer of Christ and the Bible. But isn’t it stated in Mark 3 that his brothers and mother, and some versions and his sister, are looking for him? If it’s not in the Bible the perpetual virginity I don’t honestly see a real purpose in believing her virginity to be necessary. Do we need that to believe in Jesus as the Messiah, despite his many miracles, teachings, and resurrection? It’s a bit silly. Women are important, and we have a beautiful duty and role to fill in our lives for our husbands and children, but perpetually a virgin is definitely not one of them. And I think Mary and Joseph would feel the same way.
This is a great group, and an important group as it wrestles honestly with the underlying mystery of God's majesty and God's humility as he desires to reveal himself to us everyday. However, to make statements like: "It's a bit silly", or "It doesn't matter" sets a person immediately at odds with many many holy people throughout history that see very clearly why the doctrine of perpetual virginity does matter and isn't silly. I certainly have a tendency to be a reductionist....how is something going to impact me NOW.
After many years of study, and much prayer, once my mind fixed on the realtiy that to listen to the chuch IS to listen to Jesus I experienced (contrary to common wisdom) freedom not slavery. I can now relax and be confident that in God's time.... the beauty of this revealed truth will provide deeper insights to the reality of God himself (this is happened many times).
Chesterton from Orthodoxy: "I freely confess all the idiotic ambitions of the end of the
nineteenth century. I did, like all other solemn little boys, try to be in advance of the age.
Like them I tried to be some ten minutes in advance of the truth. And I found that I was
eighteen hundred years behind it." Also from Chesterton: ~"I could have saved myself a lot of time if I would have read my catechism."
I didn't care to address the doctrine directly. There is more than enough beautiful reflections available which do this better than I can.......if someone want's to read and ponder them (ponder....a great Marian word).
Holiness is the Church's primary business. Everything else in her is a means to that end. Even the ministry of assuring unity and teaching authoratively in the Church, however essential, is but a means to the greater end of her holiness (and the holiness of her children); and therefore the catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC 773) says that the "Marian dimension of the church (promoting holiness) precedes the Petrine (Peter and his successors)"
Let us all pray for each other that we grow in holiness today, and become more like Mary....filling with grace, and looking to her as humanity's hope for what God can do to those who love him.
In Matthew 6 the apostles ask Jesus how to pray. He tells them to pray directly to God, Our Father. First, one is to praise Our Father and then one can ask Him for Blessings.
He does not tell them to pray to Mary or the saints or the angels. We do not need an intercessor since Jesus came. He made it even clearer when He died on the cross and the "veil of the temple was opened up to man, giving us direct access to Our Father. Matthew 27:50-51 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent.
I like this conversation. While dogma is certainly important (as noted above), it can also lead to philosophical rigor mortis or enable discussions to be reduced to a binary level of inquiry. The Book of Job echoes more urgently in my ear the older I get. Where were we when God wrought His wonders? I can never come close to understanding God. So I surrender to the ineffable Lord and stand with one foot in dogma and one foot in wonder.
Reminds me a lot of what Jonathan Pageau said about Moses transforming his staff into a serpent and then back into a staff. You need to rigidity of the staff but also the openness to experience of the serpent. Can’t be all staff that’s legalism, can’t be all serpent because then what are your actual coherent beliefs.
This is all so interesting. I have Catholic children and I am a protestant and we consider these kinds of things all of the time. Andrew's discussion last Thursday fascinated me and offered a new perspective that I want to ponder.
I sit with my children and grandchildren sometimes as they pray the rosary, or clean up quietly in the kitchen, enjoying their voices and the trust in God I know they all have and are expressing. I've always been okay with people praying to saints, even Mary because I figure it's like asking my friends who are still here on earth, to pray for me because times are tough. However in a service sitting with them found my self singing along in Latin until we got to Ave Regina. It felt like she was elevated to high, only The Holy Trinity get's the monarchical title. "Blessed art thou among women" is true, queen of heaven has no foundation that I can agree with despite all of the parallel's that have been pointed out to me.
Jennifer, you are in good company. Your heart desires to honor God above all else, so does Mary's. Mary is never in competition with her son. All her glory is due to him, but Jesus does desire to glorify his mother with great dignity. God bless you.
Hold on, hold on. Private interpretation? Isn’t that like your truth my truth trap of the day.? In Genesis many wiseacres tried to interpret the dream. Joseph asked God and got it right. Paul in 2 Peter says no prophecy is of private interpretation. Interpretation seems to be a gift of God we all should seek .He even provided interpreters ( Urim and Thummim) for special occasions. Interpreting words is a whole other kingdom of chaos unless we reach for the higher and holier meanings as found in scripture and through revelation and then have some unity of mind on the subject. God is His own interpreter and He will make it plain. Thanks for space and time to engage in seeking more light and knowledge together. The holy light of Christ.
I don’t think it matters whether Mary bore more children, if they were her stepchildren, or her nephews. Christ is still both God and man, and we venerate Mary because of her first (and possibly only) born. We pray to the Holy Mother to intercede for us with Him, regardless if she had more children or not.
Let me paraphrase Paul’s command to the Ephesians, “Don’t act thoughtlessly, but understand what the Lord wants you to do,” (Ephesians 5:17 NLT), to, “Don’t think thoughtlessly, but understand what the Lord wants you to think.”
Jesus promised to send us the Holy Spirit, so we can always know what God thinks about everything, “When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth" (John 16:13 NLT) and, “But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own, he will speak only what he hears” (John 16:13 NIV).
Why think about anything using only what YOU know, using your limited capacity? Why not go straight to the Holy Spirit and find out what HE knows in His infinite capacity? Since He’s the same Holy Spirit Jesus has sent to all of us who believe, all of us are bound to hear the same thing about everything we ask, so we can always know THE truth, not our truth, or somebody else's truth.
The trick, of course, is that you have to be willing to accept God's truth every time you ask (and not
shy away from something that makes you uncomfortable or cling to something that makes you comfortable). Or, as James says, "If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you. But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do." (James 1:5-8 NIV).
Sheryl, I really like the way you position this. Catholics are (bound) in faith to accept the teaching...so how does that play out in personal understanding? When Mary receives the announcement from Gabrial that she will be the mother of Jesus through the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit, she accepts but expresses a certain wonder. When Zechariah receives from Gabriel the announcement that Elizabeth will conceive, he has a skeptical attitude. Catholics are encouraged to be more like Mary, and less like Zecharia when we encounter God's word through the church.
This is the Perspectival part of Vervaeke’s 4 P’s of knowing. Of course the individuals perspective can’t be so far off that he’s worshipping a false god.
I recommend a good reading of Tozer’s book The Knowledge of the Holy. In its first chapter it encourages us to get a right picture of God as our imagination makes way to idolatry. Which is quite humbling to say the least.
On another note, I don’t know much about Mary’s perpetual virginity as I’m not catholic. But I am a fervent believer of Christ and the Bible. But isn’t it stated in Mark 3 that his brothers and mother, and some versions and his sister, are looking for him? If it’s not in the Bible the perpetual virginity I don’t honestly see a real purpose in believing her virginity to be necessary. Do we need that to believe in Jesus as the Messiah, despite his many miracles, teachings, and resurrection? It’s a bit silly. Women are important, and we have a beautiful duty and role to fill in our lives for our husbands and children, but perpetually a virgin is definitely not one of them. And I think Mary and Joseph would feel the same way.
This is a great group, and an important group as it wrestles honestly with the underlying mystery of God's majesty and God's humility as he desires to reveal himself to us everyday. However, to make statements like: "It's a bit silly", or "It doesn't matter" sets a person immediately at odds with many many holy people throughout history that see very clearly why the doctrine of perpetual virginity does matter and isn't silly. I certainly have a tendency to be a reductionist....how is something going to impact me NOW.
After many years of study, and much prayer, once my mind fixed on the realtiy that to listen to the chuch IS to listen to Jesus I experienced (contrary to common wisdom) freedom not slavery. I can now relax and be confident that in God's time.... the beauty of this revealed truth will provide deeper insights to the reality of God himself (this is happened many times).
Chesterton from Orthodoxy: "I freely confess all the idiotic ambitions of the end of the
nineteenth century. I did, like all other solemn little boys, try to be in advance of the age.
Like them I tried to be some ten minutes in advance of the truth. And I found that I was
eighteen hundred years behind it." Also from Chesterton: ~"I could have saved myself a lot of time if I would have read my catechism."
I didn't care to address the doctrine directly. There is more than enough beautiful reflections available which do this better than I can.......if someone want's to read and ponder them (ponder....a great Marian word).
Holiness is the Church's primary business. Everything else in her is a means to that end. Even the ministry of assuring unity and teaching authoratively in the Church, however essential, is but a means to the greater end of her holiness (and the holiness of her children); and therefore the catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC 773) says that the "Marian dimension of the church (promoting holiness) precedes the Petrine (Peter and his successors)"
Let us all pray for each other that we grow in holiness today, and become more like Mary....filling with grace, and looking to her as humanity's hope for what God can do to those who love him.
In Matthew 6 the apostles ask Jesus how to pray. He tells them to pray directly to God, Our Father. First, one is to praise Our Father and then one can ask Him for Blessings.
He does not tell them to pray to Mary or the saints or the angels. We do not need an intercessor since Jesus came. He made it even clearer when He died on the cross and the "veil of the temple was opened up to man, giving us direct access to Our Father. Matthew 27:50-51 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent.
Wait, how does your mother know this strange man, to whom you share no relation?!
I like this conversation. While dogma is certainly important (as noted above), it can also lead to philosophical rigor mortis or enable discussions to be reduced to a binary level of inquiry. The Book of Job echoes more urgently in my ear the older I get. Where were we when God wrought His wonders? I can never come close to understanding God. So I surrender to the ineffable Lord and stand with one foot in dogma and one foot in wonder.
Reminds me a lot of what Jonathan Pageau said about Moses transforming his staff into a serpent and then back into a staff. You need to rigidity of the staff but also the openness to experience of the serpent. Can’t be all staff that’s legalism, can’t be all serpent because then what are your actual coherent beliefs.
This is all so interesting. I have Catholic children and I am a protestant and we consider these kinds of things all of the time. Andrew's discussion last Thursday fascinated me and offered a new perspective that I want to ponder.
I sit with my children and grandchildren sometimes as they pray the rosary, or clean up quietly in the kitchen, enjoying their voices and the trust in God I know they all have and are expressing. I've always been okay with people praying to saints, even Mary because I figure it's like asking my friends who are still here on earth, to pray for me because times are tough. However in a service sitting with them found my self singing along in Latin until we got to Ave Regina. It felt like she was elevated to high, only The Holy Trinity get's the monarchical title. "Blessed art thou among women" is true, queen of heaven has no foundation that I can agree with despite all of the parallel's that have been pointed out to me.
Jennifer, you are in good company. Your heart desires to honor God above all else, so does Mary's. Mary is never in competition with her son. All her glory is due to him, but Jesus does desire to glorify his mother with great dignity. God bless you.
Hold on, hold on. Private interpretation? Isn’t that like your truth my truth trap of the day.? In Genesis many wiseacres tried to interpret the dream. Joseph asked God and got it right. Paul in 2 Peter says no prophecy is of private interpretation. Interpretation seems to be a gift of God we all should seek .He even provided interpreters ( Urim and Thummim) for special occasions. Interpreting words is a whole other kingdom of chaos unless we reach for the higher and holier meanings as found in scripture and through revelation and then have some unity of mind on the subject. God is His own interpreter and He will make it plain. Thanks for space and time to engage in seeking more light and knowledge together. The holy light of Christ.
I don’t think it matters whether Mary bore more children, if they were her stepchildren, or her nephews. Christ is still both God and man, and we venerate Mary because of her first (and possibly only) born. We pray to the Holy Mother to intercede for us with Him, regardless if she had more children or not.
Let me paraphrase Paul’s command to the Ephesians, “Don’t act thoughtlessly, but understand what the Lord wants you to do,” (Ephesians 5:17 NLT), to, “Don’t think thoughtlessly, but understand what the Lord wants you to think.”
Jesus promised to send us the Holy Spirit, so we can always know what God thinks about everything, “When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth" (John 16:13 NLT) and, “But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own, he will speak only what he hears” (John 16:13 NIV).
Why think about anything using only what YOU know, using your limited capacity? Why not go straight to the Holy Spirit and find out what HE knows in His infinite capacity? Since He’s the same Holy Spirit Jesus has sent to all of us who believe, all of us are bound to hear the same thing about everything we ask, so we can always know THE truth, not our truth, or somebody else's truth.
The trick, of course, is that you have to be willing to accept God's truth every time you ask (and not
shy away from something that makes you uncomfortable or cling to something that makes you comfortable). Or, as James says, "If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you. But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do." (James 1:5-8 NIV).
Food for thought
AFAIK, Catholics are asked to obediently accept the Church’s doctrine but it’s also not a sin to personally wonder if Mary was ever-Virgin.
Sheryl, I really like the way you position this. Catholics are (bound) in faith to accept the teaching...so how does that play out in personal understanding? When Mary receives the announcement from Gabrial that she will be the mother of Jesus through the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit, she accepts but expresses a certain wonder. When Zechariah receives from Gabriel the announcement that Elizabeth will conceive, he has a skeptical attitude. Catholics are encouraged to be more like Mary, and less like Zecharia when we encounter God's word through the church.
This is the Perspectival part of Vervaeke’s 4 P’s of knowing. Of course the individuals perspective can’t be so far off that he’s worshipping a false god.