There has been so much debate, misunderstanding, and acrimony over the role of Mary in Christianity. She is the eternal feminine and, at least, warrants our love and veneration. Suffice it to say that Jesus coming to us in any other way than through His earthly mother would not have fulfilled the promise. I have, as a Catholic, certain questions regarding the point at which the veneration of Mary turns into worship but her place is certainly above man and the angels. I thank Andrew and Spencer for this discussion. It is a worthwhile and useful reflection.
This Anglican raised fundamentalist Protestant lives near an open-to-the-public garden with statues of Mary. My thought: Mary is the eternal God-bearer, perpetually the earth nurturing the growing unseen heavenly seed. I sometimes pray before these, noting: She herself is in a posture of prayer, with a rosary hanging from her arm.
We owe Mary everything. She is the key piece to the puzzle in the fulfillment of God’s promise. He chose her and she was conceived without sin. She is first of all next to the triune God.
There is a priest at a southern MD church who my daughter says is in love with Mary. I wouldn’t go that far, but I would say she deserves a special veneration for multiple reasons. The first, and most obvious, is she’s the mother of Jesus, the mother of God. She also suffered the loss of her only son, and watched him be executed in a most horrific, painful, and humiliating way. She saw things no mother should ever suffer. As a parent, it can get me emotional just thinking about that.
Of course, there are also all the times Mary has appeared on earth, mostly to children, and that’s a good thing. The faith of a child can be so much strong than in an adult.
Mary's lineage is important, as her mother was from the tribe of the Levites (the priests) and her father was from the tribe of Judeah (the kings); therefore, Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Mr. Klavan, your writing this morning reminded me of Shakespeare In Love, where a young “Will” Shakespeare is so enamored of Viola
that, when speaking to Viola, who is disguised as a man so she can act in Will’s plays, he describes her breasts in such a way that Viola feels she cannot possibly live up to. Somewhat enraged, she vacated his presence in a rush.
I think some feminists might feel this way about the Eternal Feminine, especially the more attractive ones. This, too, is a lofty ideal that no woman can live up to, because they’re broken humans, who make just as many mistakes as their male counterparts. However, I suspect this is a small group of feminists. The rest can’t get dates. It’s why they became feminists in the first place.
And that is what got me booted off Twitter the first of three times. 🤷🏼♂️
Hmmm. I’m not a feminist but my theory is that they have been let down by a father or husband and then they get lost in their anger and pride. Just saying.
I hadn’t ever heard Mary referred to as The Ark of the New Covenant, but the notion is uncannily fitting — if a non-theologian may so opine.
One additional thought: this balance reminds me a little of Jordan Peterson’s hobby horse that to destroy the ideal is to destroy the fringe. Or, closer to home, Spencer’s idea of having something precise and doctrinal like the Catholic Catechism, while still having to make practical choices that fall far short. Or Papa Klavan advocating that art isn’t about portraying ideals, but real people—fallen people in a fallen world.
The Ark of the Covenant contained the Ten Commandments, Aaron's budding staff, and a pot of manna—the Word, the cross, the bread of life (fractal-ly, a container within a container).
(The ark of Noah is the same: the salvation of the world.)
It extends in the macro direction also: Holy of Holies, within the temple, which models the cosmos, as heaven and earth (round/spherical heaven, square/cubic earth), which are masculine and feminine....
The concept of "Eternal Feminine" has never actually crossed my mind but honestly, I do struggle to be comfortable deep down with whatever femininity I have. I'm not sure if it's a generational thing, as none of my friends and I were taught to be particularly feminine? I don't even really know exactly what it means to be so. I suppose my concept of femininity revolves somewhat around pretty girls with long hair and trim waistlines who can wear any type of fashionable clothing they like, though I do know some bigger girls I'd consider to be quite feminine as well. While I am hardly a feminist, have never felt unloved by the men in my life or been abused, I apparently haven't escaped culturally unscathed. I know I'm not the only woman who feels this way either. And this is why things like "Trad Wife" and the like go trending. Because we are all trying to figure this out and probably subconsciously hoping to tap into some Eternal Feminine energy along the way.
Mary, the mother of Jesus, is a blessed human (no question here). As a woman, Virgin Mary was chosen for a purpose, which she fulfilled and obeyed. She served her role as a mother and wife well. And, she is considered faithful servant. We too can do the same by the blood shed on the cross of Calvary.
This may be taking the discussion in a different direction, but it seems we are missing a dimension of the newness of the New Covenant by focusing strictly on Mary the historical woman, and even the abstraction of 'the Eternal Feminine' and we're not seeing beyond Mary herself to the honored prototype of God's means of bringing forth the promised Christ in the world, "the seed of the woman." (Is that what the Eternal Feminine is about? If so, oughtn't it to be rooted more concretely in material reality?) I'm convinced that Luke portrays a Marian Pentecost at the beginning of his first volume, by which Jesus is birthed in the world as the Jewish Messiah, and at the beginning of Luke's second volume, we have the parallel coming of the Spirit upon the Church, by which Jesus is brought to the nations as the Savior of the world. The prototype given to us in Mary, correcting Eve's failure (as long as we are talking about feminine prototypes), becomes the Church herself, the spotless Bride (another vision of the Eternal Feminine), the means by which heaven descends to earth in human form: prayerful and joyful submission to God's Word, knowing that the fruit of that submission is the hope of the world to the glory of the One who made it for His own pleasure and glory. The big question I'm asking these days is 'What does it mean to sow to the Spirit, build institutions in the Spirit, by the Spirit, in step with the Spirit?' Are we building Babel thinking we're building the Church? The redemption of the world has a logical connection with the means of grace and the hope of glory... This resonates with Andrew's critique of conservatives who are adopting the dishonest tactics of the left in their fight, and I so appreciate that corrective. It seems important to read the Scripture with these typological/literary sensitivities about the nature of the Church also, so as to understand the nature of the Biblical wisdom as revealing spiritual realities, that can only be achieved by the Spirit.
You've made me curious about how the Eternal Feminine has been depicted in literature across time. The first thing that popped into my mind was "David Copperfield" in which Dickens describes the long-suffering Agnes as ever "pointing upward." Are there other well-known examples anyone can think of?
There has been so much debate, misunderstanding, and acrimony over the role of Mary in Christianity. She is the eternal feminine and, at least, warrants our love and veneration. Suffice it to say that Jesus coming to us in any other way than through His earthly mother would not have fulfilled the promise. I have, as a Catholic, certain questions regarding the point at which the veneration of Mary turns into worship but her place is certainly above man and the angels. I thank Andrew and Spencer for this discussion. It is a worthwhile and useful reflection.
This Anglican raised fundamentalist Protestant lives near an open-to-the-public garden with statues of Mary. My thought: Mary is the eternal God-bearer, perpetually the earth nurturing the growing unseen heavenly seed. I sometimes pray before these, noting: She herself is in a posture of prayer, with a rosary hanging from her arm.
We owe Mary everything. She is the key piece to the puzzle in the fulfillment of God’s promise. He chose her and she was conceived without sin. She is first of all next to the triune God.
There is a priest at a southern MD church who my daughter says is in love with Mary. I wouldn’t go that far, but I would say she deserves a special veneration for multiple reasons. The first, and most obvious, is she’s the mother of Jesus, the mother of God. She also suffered the loss of her only son, and watched him be executed in a most horrific, painful, and humiliating way. She saw things no mother should ever suffer. As a parent, it can get me emotional just thinking about that.
Of course, there are also all the times Mary has appeared on earth, mostly to children, and that’s a good thing. The faith of a child can be so much strong than in an adult.
Mary's lineage is important, as her mother was from the tribe of the Levites (the priests) and her father was from the tribe of Judeah (the kings); therefore, Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Mr. Klavan, your writing this morning reminded me of Shakespeare In Love, where a young “Will” Shakespeare is so enamored of Viola
that, when speaking to Viola, who is disguised as a man so she can act in Will’s plays, he describes her breasts in such a way that Viola feels she cannot possibly live up to. Somewhat enraged, she vacated his presence in a rush.
I think some feminists might feel this way about the Eternal Feminine, especially the more attractive ones. This, too, is a lofty ideal that no woman can live up to, because they’re broken humans, who make just as many mistakes as their male counterparts. However, I suspect this is a small group of feminists. The rest can’t get dates. It’s why they became feminists in the first place.
And that is what got me booted off Twitter the first of three times. 🤷🏼♂️
Hmmm. I’m not a feminist but my theory is that they have been let down by a father or husband and then they get lost in their anger and pride. Just saying.
I hadn’t ever heard Mary referred to as The Ark of the New Covenant, but the notion is uncannily fitting — if a non-theologian may so opine.
One additional thought: this balance reminds me a little of Jordan Peterson’s hobby horse that to destroy the ideal is to destroy the fringe. Or, closer to home, Spencer’s idea of having something precise and doctrinal like the Catholic Catechism, while still having to make practical choices that fall far short. Or Papa Klavan advocating that art isn’t about portraying ideals, but real people—fallen people in a fallen world.
What do you all think?
I have heard both Mary and the church being referred to ask the ark. And Rumi says Love is the Ark.
The Ark of the Covenant contained the Ten Commandments, Aaron's budding staff, and a pot of manna—the Word, the cross, the bread of life (fractal-ly, a container within a container).
(The ark of Noah is the same: the salvation of the world.)
Fractal-ly Great insight ❤️
It extends in the macro direction also: Holy of Holies, within the temple, which models the cosmos, as heaven and earth (round/spherical heaven, square/cubic earth), which are masculine and feminine....
The concept of "Eternal Feminine" has never actually crossed my mind but honestly, I do struggle to be comfortable deep down with whatever femininity I have. I'm not sure if it's a generational thing, as none of my friends and I were taught to be particularly feminine? I don't even really know exactly what it means to be so. I suppose my concept of femininity revolves somewhat around pretty girls with long hair and trim waistlines who can wear any type of fashionable clothing they like, though I do know some bigger girls I'd consider to be quite feminine as well. While I am hardly a feminist, have never felt unloved by the men in my life or been abused, I apparently haven't escaped culturally unscathed. I know I'm not the only woman who feels this way either. And this is why things like "Trad Wife" and the like go trending. Because we are all trying to figure this out and probably subconsciously hoping to tap into some Eternal Feminine energy along the way.
Mary, the mother of Jesus, is a blessed human (no question here). As a woman, Virgin Mary was chosen for a purpose, which she fulfilled and obeyed. She served her role as a mother and wife well. And, she is considered faithful servant. We too can do the same by the blood shed on the cross of Calvary.
This may be taking the discussion in a different direction, but it seems we are missing a dimension of the newness of the New Covenant by focusing strictly on Mary the historical woman, and even the abstraction of 'the Eternal Feminine' and we're not seeing beyond Mary herself to the honored prototype of God's means of bringing forth the promised Christ in the world, "the seed of the woman." (Is that what the Eternal Feminine is about? If so, oughtn't it to be rooted more concretely in material reality?) I'm convinced that Luke portrays a Marian Pentecost at the beginning of his first volume, by which Jesus is birthed in the world as the Jewish Messiah, and at the beginning of Luke's second volume, we have the parallel coming of the Spirit upon the Church, by which Jesus is brought to the nations as the Savior of the world. The prototype given to us in Mary, correcting Eve's failure (as long as we are talking about feminine prototypes), becomes the Church herself, the spotless Bride (another vision of the Eternal Feminine), the means by which heaven descends to earth in human form: prayerful and joyful submission to God's Word, knowing that the fruit of that submission is the hope of the world to the glory of the One who made it for His own pleasure and glory. The big question I'm asking these days is 'What does it mean to sow to the Spirit, build institutions in the Spirit, by the Spirit, in step with the Spirit?' Are we building Babel thinking we're building the Church? The redemption of the world has a logical connection with the means of grace and the hope of glory... This resonates with Andrew's critique of conservatives who are adopting the dishonest tactics of the left in their fight, and I so appreciate that corrective. It seems important to read the Scripture with these typological/literary sensitivities about the nature of the Church also, so as to understand the nature of the Biblical wisdom as revealing spiritual realities, that can only be achieved by the Spirit.
You've made me curious about how the Eternal Feminine has been depicted in literature across time. The first thing that popped into my mind was "David Copperfield" in which Dickens describes the long-suffering Agnes as ever "pointing upward." Are there other well-known examples anyone can think of?