I feel as though like, Sir Klavan the Elder, we tend to enjoy our favorite sin. William Blake once said "the road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom." Whereas this is a post enlightenment mantra it is pure recycled equine digestive by product in light of the gospel. We have a favorite sin and it is one we will justify as more naughty than actual soul killing. We try to elevate our sin to a just-above-sin level though not really good solution we can justify continuing it. But that often becomes our stumbling block to the true joy of being with the God who can speak the world into existence. Interestingly, He spoke the world into existence but we are "the work of His hand". He crafted us with intention and yet we excuse that nice little piece of decadence that would bring us to Him fully. The triumph of evil in us is not the negation of good so much but the excusing of that very same evil as something else.
Is a pack of loose leaf paper good? A blank canvas? It seems to me that media are morally neutral; what is placed upon them makes the endeavor good and worthy or ugly and demeaning. So to call scary movies and X good is a bit of a stretch. As with all things, man has the ability to corrupt anything under the influence of the Evil one, or create something uplifting and good (the same scroll could be used to write GenderQueer or the Gospel according to Matthew).
Something is perceived as “the good” is raised and venerated to the the status of idol but after a while the wheres & the why’s for of it’s goodness is lost , which then degenerates to idolatry & power and the temporal world dominates the spiritual and behaviour reverts to our base DNA viral coding.
If God has set up this contrast in modes of being we need to search for the meaning , God appears to kick the butt of his human horse to water of truth but the He can’t make the bugger drink it .
Well not for long anyway before it starts building another Tower of Babel over the damm pond .
Dear Andrew and fellow crew, I'm in need of some encouragement. I'm a 33 yo married man and father of 3 young boys, 4.5, 3, and 1.5 years old. I can see so much potential and individual personality in my boys even now from their young ages. When you write, "Every happily married couple experiences this. The joy of faithful love is pro-rated, a life-enhancing intimacy of fidelity over time," this is my hope for my wife and I. Right now my wife is pouring out energy in raising our boys. She is a terrific planner and I completely trust our boys to her loving and wise care. But she's exhausted. I try to ease her load however I can, doing the dishes, taking out the trash, changing diapers. But she has no drive for sex. She will reluctantly let me see her naked once a month. Rather than intimate fidelity over time, it feels like a trial of non-intimate fidelity. She claims she doesn't like sex, but I know that's not true because we've had great times whenever we visit her parents and she can get a break. But once we leave, it's back to the trial. Our parents live 8+ hours away. Can anyone with positive marital experience comment on things you've done to stay positive in the trial period, or any insight you have for maintaining intimacy in the toddler stages of kids? Thanks
I sort of went through this. It’s back to basics I’m afraid. You have to swallow your pride, admit to her that men simply have to empty their balls or go mad and ask just what it will take? My wife now gets a 30 minute, full body massage prior to my 90 seconds of joy.
Women may seem bonkers but they can be negotiated with. They just don’t understand how important getting our end away is. It came as a complete surprise to my wife. It might be the same for your wife. Tell her what you want and then ask what price you have to pay. It sounds unromantic but it’s more romantic than divorce which, ultimately, will be the most likely outcome for a sexless marriage.
Sorry to deliver such a doom laden message but at least there’s a practical solution. Good luck chief.
This is true. Sex was just a routine thing for me when we had little ones. I had it on my list of other chores. Sad to say I've had to learn how to enjoy my husbands attention.
Thanks for the tip on negotiation. She's all touched out with between our 3 boys. I'd love to give her a massage but she's tapped. I think lowering expectations to just meeting bare physical needs for the time being sounds the most realistic until the kids become less physically demanding and we can start enjoying eachother again. My ideal would be sex that she enjoys, but that day may have to wait.
Thanks Steve. I do appreciate the ideas and the sympathy. We've just started building friendship with another couple we jive well with. They have kids the same age as ours and just had their 3rd child. One day I think we will be in a situation to do that.
My dad is supportive but his answer hasn't yielded great results. He's suggested sharing Bible verses. It's hard but we've made it farther along in our marriage than my parents did. We both know Corinthians talks about not depriving one another, but I think she feels like the verses are just another weight of expectation on an already difficult season and she's said that this is survival mode right now.
I do love my wife and want for us to grow closer together. I can choke the chicken, but it still leaves me feeling alienated from her. Maybe I'm being unrealistic about the closeness that's possible for this season of life. And just need to keep walking through it. It has driven me to chat with God more seriously than past times. I appreciate hearing and knowing I'm not the only one to go through this. Thanks for your thoughts and for hearing me out.
This is right on. Too often, I believe, Christians make the mistake of avoiding the evil in the world so much that we bring about another evil of effacing the rich humanity that reflects the image of God in us. I believe that redemption is about making us more deeply human. That includes the ability to reclaim the good things that have been hijacked by evil and take pleasure in them.
One of my favorite of Shakespeare’s sonnets…one that directly confronts the conflicted nature of sex post-fall. I like to read Donne as a slight antidote to that perspective, or at least another take on it — his use of sexuality to describe the Holy is a call to the Godlier intent of sex.
"the greater Christian journey is to live into the goodness at the core of the corruption." This is what being rooted in Jesus does for you. Also, I am a bit older and when I talk about all the troubles in the world, people ask me how can we have any hope? I've surived the world so far and live to fight another day. Understanding the reality of this world (no surprise if you read the bible) and facing it head on with the peace of knowing Christ has won the battle makes moving forward so much easier.
My friend this happens. Often when women have children they no longer see themselves as our lovers. They only perceived themselves as mom. Even wife becomes absolutely secondary and we can be left out. Your issue as I see it is more of re-estabkishing relationship and less of just re-establshing sex. Start by just talking. I am sure that you have but with a view of rediscovery. No agenda just relearning her. Often this phase is temporary but either way your marriage is an evolution not a series of events. This is where it is now.
Well said, Andrew. It reminds me of that thin line between chaos and order that divides the yin and the yang. Perhaps another example of the universal, natural, inspired truths that are given us from on high.
The way I see it, horror is only redeemed if you can guide it towards some good end.
If a man retreats from anger, he can’t be a teacher in Philly.
If he retreats from gore, he can’t be an EMT.
Desensitizing yourself to horror is good when you are doing good, and quixotic if not.
Ps. I began Tolstoy with Anna Karenina and then went to The Kingdom Of God Is Within You and What Is Art. Then I read some of his late fiction and finally My Confession and his Gospel In Brief. I never actually read War And Peace, but maybe I will now that I understand you’re drawn to it.
Please pardon the copy paste. I’d like to leave something here about Tolstoy’s criticism of Dostoyevsky.
Criticism of Crime and Punishment
As mentioned earlier, Tolstoy had more difficulty with Crime and Punishment. He found its detailed psychological focus on Raskolnikov's torment overly intense, which detracted from the ethical clarity that Tolstoy himself valued in storytelling. In some discussions with contemporaries, Tolstoy implied that Crime and Punishment left him feeling depressed, and he wasn't as moved by the redemptive arc as he would have liked.
General Comments on Dostoyevsky's
Writing
In a letter to his friend Strakhov, Tolstoy described Dostoyevsky as a "muddled" writer, emphasizing that while Dostoyevsky had great ideas and a deep moral concern, his execution was sometimes confusing and his work lacked the clarity Tolstoy sought. Despite this, Tolstoy never dismissed Dostoyevsky entirely-he recognized his moral depth, even if he found Dostoyevsky's psychological realism overwhelming.
Conversations with Ivan Bunin
The writer Ivan Bunin recounted that Tolstoy said he couldn't understand how people could be so fascinated by Crime and Punishment and The Idiot. Tolstoy felt that Dostoyevsky's psychological explorations, especially those dealing with the more tortured or criminal aspects of humanity, took away from the moral resolution that should define a story.
Overall, Tolstoy respected Dostoyevsky's ethical concerns but found the psychological focus and the darkness in his works too much. He seemed to prefer narratives that left readers with a sense of clarity and moral purpose, which he found less often in Dostoyevsky's books.
"The problem is: these good things can be corrupted and we are drawn to that corruption."
That is Exactly What Satan Does. Takes Good Things, Corrupts them, Returns them to us.
If I may
The Basilisk
by Paul Kingsnorth
https://emergencemagazine.org/fiction/the-basilisk/
H/T
Rod Dreher's Diary
The Secret Histories
https://roddreher.substack.com/p/the-secret-histories
Reading through the Basilisk now — but , ironically, needed to check back on my comment — it’s a great piece of writing.
The Reply Letter gets close to Neo-Paganism. IMO
I feel as though like, Sir Klavan the Elder, we tend to enjoy our favorite sin. William Blake once said "the road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom." Whereas this is a post enlightenment mantra it is pure recycled equine digestive by product in light of the gospel. We have a favorite sin and it is one we will justify as more naughty than actual soul killing. We try to elevate our sin to a just-above-sin level though not really good solution we can justify continuing it. But that often becomes our stumbling block to the true joy of being with the God who can speak the world into existence. Interestingly, He spoke the world into existence but we are "the work of His hand". He crafted us with intention and yet we excuse that nice little piece of decadence that would bring us to Him fully. The triumph of evil in us is not the negation of good so much but the excusing of that very same evil as something else.
Is a pack of loose leaf paper good? A blank canvas? It seems to me that media are morally neutral; what is placed upon them makes the endeavor good and worthy or ugly and demeaning. So to call scary movies and X good is a bit of a stretch. As with all things, man has the ability to corrupt anything under the influence of the Evil one, or create something uplifting and good (the same scroll could be used to write GenderQueer or the Gospel according to Matthew).
" So to call scary movies and X good is a bit of a stretch."
Is it, a stretch?
Technology, neither Good nor Evil, simply IS. All depends on who is using it and Why they are.
Good point. I’ll add there’s a distinction between a blank canvas, e.g. a platform — X — and a film, which is a completed piece of art.
Iconoclasm, the anacyclosis of good & evil :
Something is perceived as “the good” is raised and venerated to the the status of idol but after a while the wheres & the why’s for of it’s goodness is lost , which then degenerates to idolatry & power and the temporal world dominates the spiritual and behaviour reverts to our base DNA viral coding.
If God has set up this contrast in modes of being we need to search for the meaning , God appears to kick the butt of his human horse to water of truth but the He can’t make the bugger drink it .
Well not for long anyway before it starts building another Tower of Babel over the damm pond .
Dear Andrew and fellow crew, I'm in need of some encouragement. I'm a 33 yo married man and father of 3 young boys, 4.5, 3, and 1.5 years old. I can see so much potential and individual personality in my boys even now from their young ages. When you write, "Every happily married couple experiences this. The joy of faithful love is pro-rated, a life-enhancing intimacy of fidelity over time," this is my hope for my wife and I. Right now my wife is pouring out energy in raising our boys. She is a terrific planner and I completely trust our boys to her loving and wise care. But she's exhausted. I try to ease her load however I can, doing the dishes, taking out the trash, changing diapers. But she has no drive for sex. She will reluctantly let me see her naked once a month. Rather than intimate fidelity over time, it feels like a trial of non-intimate fidelity. She claims she doesn't like sex, but I know that's not true because we've had great times whenever we visit her parents and she can get a break. But once we leave, it's back to the trial. Our parents live 8+ hours away. Can anyone with positive marital experience comment on things you've done to stay positive in the trial period, or any insight you have for maintaining intimacy in the toddler stages of kids? Thanks
I sort of went through this. It’s back to basics I’m afraid. You have to swallow your pride, admit to her that men simply have to empty their balls or go mad and ask just what it will take? My wife now gets a 30 minute, full body massage prior to my 90 seconds of joy.
Women may seem bonkers but they can be negotiated with. They just don’t understand how important getting our end away is. It came as a complete surprise to my wife. It might be the same for your wife. Tell her what you want and then ask what price you have to pay. It sounds unromantic but it’s more romantic than divorce which, ultimately, will be the most likely outcome for a sexless marriage.
Sorry to deliver such a doom laden message but at least there’s a practical solution. Good luck chief.
This is true. Sex was just a routine thing for me when we had little ones. I had it on my list of other chores. Sad to say I've had to learn how to enjoy my husbands attention.
Thanks for the tip on negotiation. She's all touched out with between our 3 boys. I'd love to give her a massage but she's tapped. I think lowering expectations to just meeting bare physical needs for the time being sounds the most realistic until the kids become less physically demanding and we can start enjoying eachother again. My ideal would be sex that she enjoys, but that day may have to wait.
I read all this in a book by the way. I’m not smart enough to have come to this conclusion by myself.
Could you find another couple where you and them could take each others kids for the night?
Have you talked to your Dad about this?
I'm assuming you Love your Wife. At the risk of sounding Rude, have you considered Spanking The Monkey?
Just throwing ideas out. BTW you are not the 1st guy to have this problem.
Thanks Steve. I do appreciate the ideas and the sympathy. We've just started building friendship with another couple we jive well with. They have kids the same age as ours and just had their 3rd child. One day I think we will be in a situation to do that.
My dad is supportive but his answer hasn't yielded great results. He's suggested sharing Bible verses. It's hard but we've made it farther along in our marriage than my parents did. We both know Corinthians talks about not depriving one another, but I think she feels like the verses are just another weight of expectation on an already difficult season and she's said that this is survival mode right now.
I do love my wife and want for us to grow closer together. I can choke the chicken, but it still leaves me feeling alienated from her. Maybe I'm being unrealistic about the closeness that's possible for this season of life. And just need to keep walking through it. It has driven me to chat with God more seriously than past times. I appreciate hearing and knowing I'm not the only one to go through this. Thanks for your thoughts and for hearing me out.
Mew & Women are Different. I am sometimes surprised we even get together.
Comedians have made a good living for 10's of 1,000's of years talking about this.
Bill Engvall Comedy: Guys Have 3 Basic Needs, Ladies
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aq3eaQ0CxRk
Jeff Foxworthy Women Training Men
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dRsydhb35E
Two Things That Make Men Happy | Leanne Morgan Comedy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o83Qn3QwdIU
This is right on. Too often, I believe, Christians make the mistake of avoiding the evil in the world so much that we bring about another evil of effacing the rich humanity that reflects the image of God in us. I believe that redemption is about making us more deeply human. That includes the ability to reclaim the good things that have been hijacked by evil and take pleasure in them.
One of my favorite of Shakespeare’s sonnets…one that directly confronts the conflicted nature of sex post-fall. I like to read Donne as a slight antidote to that perspective, or at least another take on it — his use of sexuality to describe the Holy is a call to the Godlier intent of sex.
"the greater Christian journey is to live into the goodness at the core of the corruption." This is what being rooted in Jesus does for you. Also, I am a bit older and when I talk about all the troubles in the world, people ask me how can we have any hope? I've surived the world so far and live to fight another day. Understanding the reality of this world (no surprise if you read the bible) and facing it head on with the peace of knowing Christ has won the battle makes moving forward so much easier.
My friend this happens. Often when women have children they no longer see themselves as our lovers. They only perceived themselves as mom. Even wife becomes absolutely secondary and we can be left out. Your issue as I see it is more of re-estabkishing relationship and less of just re-establshing sex. Start by just talking. I am sure that you have but with a view of rediscovery. No agenda just relearning her. Often this phase is temporary but either way your marriage is an evolution not a series of events. This is where it is now.
“savage extreme” describes more and more of the culture’s depiction of sex, sadly.
I much prefer to “go at it with ardour”.
Well said, Andrew. It reminds me of that thin line between chaos and order that divides the yin and the yang. Perhaps another example of the universal, natural, inspired truths that are given us from on high.
Song of Solomon 4:1-11 Jesus, the Shepherd Boy is speaking:
Behold, thou art fair, my love...
2 Thy teeth are like a ...
3 Thy lips are like...
4 Thy neck is like ...
5 Thy two breasts are like ...
6 Until the daybreak...
7 Thou art all fair, my love; there is no spot in thee.
8 Come with me ...
9 Thou hast ravished my heart...
10 How fair is thy love...
11 Thy lips...
Jesus is giving us an analogy using physical love because He knows we will understand it.
He loves those who love and follow Him. And so, we are to love and be loved.
The way I see it, horror is only redeemed if you can guide it towards some good end.
If a man retreats from anger, he can’t be a teacher in Philly.
If he retreats from gore, he can’t be an EMT.
Desensitizing yourself to horror is good when you are doing good, and quixotic if not.
Ps. I began Tolstoy with Anna Karenina and then went to The Kingdom Of God Is Within You and What Is Art. Then I read some of his late fiction and finally My Confession and his Gospel In Brief. I never actually read War And Peace, but maybe I will now that I understand you’re drawn to it.
Please pardon the copy paste. I’d like to leave something here about Tolstoy’s criticism of Dostoyevsky.
Criticism of Crime and Punishment
As mentioned earlier, Tolstoy had more difficulty with Crime and Punishment. He found its detailed psychological focus on Raskolnikov's torment overly intense, which detracted from the ethical clarity that Tolstoy himself valued in storytelling. In some discussions with contemporaries, Tolstoy implied that Crime and Punishment left him feeling depressed, and he wasn't as moved by the redemptive arc as he would have liked.
General Comments on Dostoyevsky's
Writing
In a letter to his friend Strakhov, Tolstoy described Dostoyevsky as a "muddled" writer, emphasizing that while Dostoyevsky had great ideas and a deep moral concern, his execution was sometimes confusing and his work lacked the clarity Tolstoy sought. Despite this, Tolstoy never dismissed Dostoyevsky entirely-he recognized his moral depth, even if he found Dostoyevsky's psychological realism overwhelming.
Conversations with Ivan Bunin
The writer Ivan Bunin recounted that Tolstoy said he couldn't understand how people could be so fascinated by Crime and Punishment and The Idiot. Tolstoy felt that Dostoyevsky's psychological explorations, especially those dealing with the more tortured or criminal aspects of humanity, took away from the moral resolution that should define a story.
Overall, Tolstoy respected Dostoyevsky's ethical concerns but found the psychological focus and the darkness in his works too much. He seemed to prefer narratives that left readers with a sense of clarity and moral purpose, which he found less often in Dostoyevsky's books.