“Is there a word that means “the opposite of Evangelism?” A word that means, “Things you can say that will ensure that the person you are speaking to will never join your church or share your faith or even come to faith at all?” If there is such a word, it describes this response.”
Yes, there is a word for that: το σκάνδαλον — stumbling block, offense, scandal. And Jesus employs this word (and its verbal cognate) in Matthew 18:1-10.
My dearly beloved sons all smoke dope. If I said to them : go and smoke no more, they would laugh me out of the room. This does not change my strongly help opinion that I think it’s harmful to body and soul. It does not change my love for them. It does not alter the realization that I have found a more excellent way to cope with existence and find relief and joy. They know very well the truths of their youth from church and it would not be pride to wish they would come back to Christ, repent and do the real work of salvation. The gospel is true or it isn’t and it would be a luke-warm disciple who did not want others to get on the path leading to more light and knowledge, not less.
I am sure I told this story here before, but.. I started going to a Christian church in 2016. My husband did not go, but he was very supportive and was all ears when I told him about the sermon. My best friend of many years asked if I believed that if my husband did not give his life to Christ that he would not be with me in heaven. I said yes and she was sad. 5 years later he was baptised and he is at the church more than me! Either you believe the Gospel or you don't.
I firmly believe that God grades both on His own standard and on a curve. I also think believers of good will should give other believers of good will all the benefits of the doubt possible. In some ways, we are all exceptions to the rule as we all fall short of the glory of God.
However, that being said, I can't see how theology doesn't matter though. What you believe about God does affect how you act and thus how the world goes. The Reformation broke down a lot of the common framework of how Christians saw God in the west, and that has obviously played out in various ways. A robust orthodoxy that allows for charity in subjective circumstances is still preferable, in my opinion, to individual subjective standards on a mass scale. But that doesn't mean we should be jerks about it either, which I think that's what this essay is getting at, and I definitely agree.
There is much to like in today’s writing. It is obvious that we have no say in who will be condemned or saved. We do have obligations to others, however. Often it is best to lead by example. As fallen but redeemed beings, we still have many flaws. I am always (and sometimes belatedly) grateful for those who point out my flaws (my wife is past-master at this one), and we carry this obligation to others. Not to condemn, but to help others along the way. This obligation does not mean we must “Karen” others around us. We must speak out when we see serious wrongdoing. Otherwise, why do we even vote? To choose the better way. Why do we speak out about the child abuse that is transgender “treatment”? Why argue against abortion, euthanasia, slavery, degradation of others? Surely justice requires it, but it is also to attempt to convince those who believe that these acts are right or justifiable. This requires judgement, not condemnation.
I for one stand with Jordan Peterson when he calls for criminal charges for anyone who is active in gender mutilation, particularly for minors. Yep, a judgement. My own soul as well as my medical license was on the line when I identified a patient with Munchausen by proxy (shaving her child’s head and claiming she had cancer). To not report such abuse would leave me liable for loss of license as well as grave moral peril if I did nothing. Now those parents who insist their 5 year old is actually the opposite gender are the protected ones, and penalties are levied against medical professionals who refuse to comply.
There are times when we must intervene. I have a great friend that I was roommates with in school. He was born in the Middle East and came to the US when he was a child. You could not have found a more kind and giving friend. He is also a virulent antisemite who writes vehemently and poisonously about the war in Gaza. He claims he is only anti Zionist, and his justification is that Jews that believe and write as he believes he tolerates and likes. What would you do? I have told him his talk is horrible and dangerous, and he claims he has be “researching” this topic for decades. I don’t know whether he has found the Protocols or not yet, but would likely believe them. I think he believes blood libel, and claims that Israel is guilty of both genocide and ethnic cleansing, despite the fact that approximately 20% of Israel is Arab, and that the population of Gaza has increased over the past 20 years, and that they could have easily destroyed all there enemies with their Air Force alone. None of this makes any difference.
I have warned him that I fear for him, and that he is succumbing to hate, and that I fear for his soul. I told him I pray for him, and that he is causing harm. What would you do? Judgement belongs to the Lord but we must try to remonstrate with those who commit evil and attempt to show them the danger that they are subjecting themselves to. Indeed, I believe we are called to do so without condemnation.
Funny. I have just had a similar argument with a group of friends I am drifting away from. They started off being skeptical about COVID stuff, which I was too, and now they are into full scale "pandas aren't real" conspiracy theories. Anti-Semitism always seems just a step away in these cases.
He has several books, all conformation bias. He learned this from his mother as well, a delightful woman and very engaging, unless this topic was broached. He has shown several books, which no doubt take the “Palestine is a sovereign land and Palestinians a race for thousands of years (which you can also find here in the US and even in the House; you know who espouses these views, one flies a Palestinian flag outside her office door in DC) . He repeatedly quotes Haaretz (sp) as well as the Intercept (filled with Palestinian “journalists”) and the UK Guardian and others. The sources are not hard to come by. Drop by any college campus over the last year, and you will be handed them, and for $250,000 you could even enroll in an Ivy League university and get a degree in this bilge.
You are right, of course, I cannot change his mind, and I have and continue to pray for him. I also pray for a rapid resolution of the war in the Middle East, and if the truth is not enough to convince these people, nothing will be. Of course, no one is as blind…
While I don’t try to “Evangelize,” I have atheist friends to whom I speak in subtle terms of needing a guiding star to follow rather than living by their personal morality. I try to couch my comments in a manner such that they don’t see my “religious” goal. I am not a theologian, but I don’t believe I am wrong in trying to bring people into the love of God with my message.
I've been blessed to work as a psychotherapist at a clinic founded by faithful Catholics. Therefore I serve a lot of Catholics. Many, I believe, would be greatly served – that is, their suffering greatly alleviated – if they could accept what you are describing. I see so many burdened by self-condemnation; living in fear of what others think. So much pain may be alleviated if they could accept (consent to receive the gift that is) the Love Christ expressed in that clear statement, "“Then neither do I condemn you".
Now that church is reunified with science and reality
Because both have a relationship with the sermon on the mount where Jesus says ask seek knock and you shall receive, one reveals the workings of the universe and its reality and the other reveals its meaning (rabbi Jonathan Sacks)
At the risk of making this about politics, I believe we have an opportunity to rebuke the deceivers and have grace for the deceived. We need to stop focusing on the hypocrisy of the left and start building out how we the party can be the party. Politics does affect women and children the most and we have an opportunity to show love and grace to the most vulnerable through even something as base as politics. Politics has certainly been used to bring evil upon them.
We as people of "God", do much to much "evangelism" and to little "Discipling". That's what Jesus told us to do. Go and make disciples!! I believe it encompasses much of what you believe Brother Andrew, and that is allowing the "Love" of God to be our compass as we pass through this life and encounter much of our God's creation. Love is the theme and Love is supreme but only God's kind of Love! (Agape).
Doctrinal arguments vs. understanding right-living is the definition of the double-edged sword analogy. It is easy to get caught up in doctrine, which leads to a kind of political party that wants wins and greatness. But like you said, that's often just a measure of not looking where we are going--which is to Christ.
I put it like this. If you hold to those early Creeds (Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian, Creeds) You're in The Club A Christian. All the rest is commentary/debate.
This conversation is challenging me, in a good way. I was reared in a loving home that was theologically Reformed. So lots of Luther-Paul-Augustine legal salvific formulae. Even now as a Catholic "convert" I find it near impossible to escape that thinking. I will say that rubbing shoulders you fine fellows helps. Glory to Jesus Christ!
Ohh…your last line was Lewisian. Perfect.
“Is there a word that means “the opposite of Evangelism?” A word that means, “Things you can say that will ensure that the person you are speaking to will never join your church or share your faith or even come to faith at all?” If there is such a word, it describes this response.”
Yes, there is a word for that: το σκάνδαλον — stumbling block, offense, scandal. And Jesus employs this word (and its verbal cognate) in Matthew 18:1-10.
My dearly beloved sons all smoke dope. If I said to them : go and smoke no more, they would laugh me out of the room. This does not change my strongly help opinion that I think it’s harmful to body and soul. It does not change my love for them. It does not alter the realization that I have found a more excellent way to cope with existence and find relief and joy. They know very well the truths of their youth from church and it would not be pride to wish they would come back to Christ, repent and do the real work of salvation. The gospel is true or it isn’t and it would be a luke-warm disciple who did not want others to get on the path leading to more light and knowledge, not less.
I am sure I told this story here before, but.. I started going to a Christian church in 2016. My husband did not go, but he was very supportive and was all ears when I told him about the sermon. My best friend of many years asked if I believed that if my husband did not give his life to Christ that he would not be with me in heaven. I said yes and she was sad. 5 years later he was baptised and he is at the church more than me! Either you believe the Gospel or you don't.
I firmly believe that God grades both on His own standard and on a curve. I also think believers of good will should give other believers of good will all the benefits of the doubt possible. In some ways, we are all exceptions to the rule as we all fall short of the glory of God.
However, that being said, I can't see how theology doesn't matter though. What you believe about God does affect how you act and thus how the world goes. The Reformation broke down a lot of the common framework of how Christians saw God in the west, and that has obviously played out in various ways. A robust orthodoxy that allows for charity in subjective circumstances is still preferable, in my opinion, to individual subjective standards on a mass scale. But that doesn't mean we should be jerks about it either, which I think that's what this essay is getting at, and I definitely agree.
There is much to like in today’s writing. It is obvious that we have no say in who will be condemned or saved. We do have obligations to others, however. Often it is best to lead by example. As fallen but redeemed beings, we still have many flaws. I am always (and sometimes belatedly) grateful for those who point out my flaws (my wife is past-master at this one), and we carry this obligation to others. Not to condemn, but to help others along the way. This obligation does not mean we must “Karen” others around us. We must speak out when we see serious wrongdoing. Otherwise, why do we even vote? To choose the better way. Why do we speak out about the child abuse that is transgender “treatment”? Why argue against abortion, euthanasia, slavery, degradation of others? Surely justice requires it, but it is also to attempt to convince those who believe that these acts are right or justifiable. This requires judgement, not condemnation.
I for one stand with Jordan Peterson when he calls for criminal charges for anyone who is active in gender mutilation, particularly for minors. Yep, a judgement. My own soul as well as my medical license was on the line when I identified a patient with Munchausen by proxy (shaving her child’s head and claiming she had cancer). To not report such abuse would leave me liable for loss of license as well as grave moral peril if I did nothing. Now those parents who insist their 5 year old is actually the opposite gender are the protected ones, and penalties are levied against medical professionals who refuse to comply.
There are times when we must intervene. I have a great friend that I was roommates with in school. He was born in the Middle East and came to the US when he was a child. You could not have found a more kind and giving friend. He is also a virulent antisemite who writes vehemently and poisonously about the war in Gaza. He claims he is only anti Zionist, and his justification is that Jews that believe and write as he believes he tolerates and likes. What would you do? I have told him his talk is horrible and dangerous, and he claims he has be “researching” this topic for decades. I don’t know whether he has found the Protocols or not yet, but would likely believe them. I think he believes blood libel, and claims that Israel is guilty of both genocide and ethnic cleansing, despite the fact that approximately 20% of Israel is Arab, and that the population of Gaza has increased over the past 20 years, and that they could have easily destroyed all there enemies with their Air Force alone. None of this makes any difference.
I have warned him that I fear for him, and that he is succumbing to hate, and that I fear for his soul. I told him I pray for him, and that he is causing harm. What would you do? Judgement belongs to the Lord but we must try to remonstrate with those who commit evil and attempt to show them the danger that they are subjecting themselves to. Indeed, I believe we are called to do so without condemnation.
Funny. I have just had a similar argument with a group of friends I am drifting away from. They started off being skeptical about COVID stuff, which I was too, and now they are into full scale "pandas aren't real" conspiracy theories. Anti-Semitism always seems just a step away in these cases.
"I have told him his talk is horrible and dangerous, and he claims he has be “researching” this topic for decades."
THE Question is Where has he researched, how broadly?
"I have warned him that I fear for him, and that he is succumbing to hate, and that I fear for his soul..."
All we can do, is what we can do. This rest is up to This person and God.
He has several books, all conformation bias. He learned this from his mother as well, a delightful woman and very engaging, unless this topic was broached. He has shown several books, which no doubt take the “Palestine is a sovereign land and Palestinians a race for thousands of years (which you can also find here in the US and even in the House; you know who espouses these views, one flies a Palestinian flag outside her office door in DC) . He repeatedly quotes Haaretz (sp) as well as the Intercept (filled with Palestinian “journalists”) and the UK Guardian and others. The sources are not hard to come by. Drop by any college campus over the last year, and you will be handed them, and for $250,000 you could even enroll in an Ivy League university and get a degree in this bilge.
You are right, of course, I cannot change his mind, and I have and continue to pray for him. I also pray for a rapid resolution of the war in the Middle East, and if the truth is not enough to convince these people, nothing will be. Of course, no one is as blind…
Imagine My Shocked Face!
While I don’t try to “Evangelize,” I have atheist friends to whom I speak in subtle terms of needing a guiding star to follow rather than living by their personal morality. I try to couch my comments in a manner such that they don’t see my “religious” goal. I am not a theologian, but I don’t believe I am wrong in trying to bring people into the love of God with my message.
I've been blessed to work as a psychotherapist at a clinic founded by faithful Catholics. Therefore I serve a lot of Catholics. Many, I believe, would be greatly served – that is, their suffering greatly alleviated – if they could accept what you are describing. I see so many burdened by self-condemnation; living in fear of what others think. So much pain may be alleviated if they could accept (consent to receive the gift that is) the Love Christ expressed in that clear statement, "“Then neither do I condemn you".
It appears, in a rather pertinent to the subject comment, I have just been eternally damned by a Catholic Priest.
https://www.calvinrobinson.com/p/america-was-saved-from-death-by-prayer/comment/77540431?utm_source=activity_item#comment-77741443?utm_source=activity_item
If church is said to be “separate from state”
Now that church is reunified with science and reality
Because both have a relationship with the sermon on the mount where Jesus says ask seek knock and you shall receive, one reveals the workings of the universe and its reality and the other reveals its meaning (rabbi Jonathan Sacks)
Is it now time for The to catch up?
Beautiful. Especially the last two sentences.
As to the story in John about The Woman Taken in Adultery, I think you might enjoy this interpretation: https://thewellexaminedlife.com/taken-in-adultery/
At the risk of making this about politics, I believe we have an opportunity to rebuke the deceivers and have grace for the deceived. We need to stop focusing on the hypocrisy of the left and start building out how we the party can be the party. Politics does affect women and children the most and we have an opportunity to show love and grace to the most vulnerable through even something as base as politics. Politics has certainly been used to bring evil upon them.
We as people of "God", do much to much "evangelism" and to little "Discipling". That's what Jesus told us to do. Go and make disciples!! I believe it encompasses much of what you believe Brother Andrew, and that is allowing the "Love" of God to be our compass as we pass through this life and encounter much of our God's creation. Love is the theme and Love is supreme but only God's kind of Love! (Agape).
Doctrinal arguments vs. understanding right-living is the definition of the double-edged sword analogy. It is easy to get caught up in doctrine, which leads to a kind of political party that wants wins and greatness. But like you said, that's often just a measure of not looking where we are going--which is to Christ.
I put it like this. If you hold to those early Creeds (Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian, Creeds) You're in The Club A Christian. All the rest is commentary/debate.
This conversation is challenging me, in a good way. I was reared in a loving home that was theologically Reformed. So lots of Luther-Paul-Augustine legal salvific formulae. Even now as a Catholic "convert" I find it near impossible to escape that thinking. I will say that rubbing shoulders you fine fellows helps. Glory to Jesus Christ!
1 Corinthians 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judges me is the Lord.