I agree that virginity is different for men and women, with one caveat: the men who don't retain their virginity outside of heterosexual (that is, biblical) marriage always "make" a non-virgin out of some woman, someone's potential future wife. Orr at least, within hetersexual relations they do. So unless we're willing to sacrifice a percentage of women on the altar of men's extra-marital desire, we must say: men, posess your vessel with honor, if only to ensure there are enough virgins to go around.
Happy Independence Day holiday to my fellow American readers!
That's well put, and something I too was questioning. I don't disagree that virginity is a desired state for women before marriage, but it appears that by saying so in this context, the argument is that men need not be so? If that's the case, then what number of women are we acceptably tossing aside as fodder for men's extra-marital activity? Does that make sense to anyone?
No but it has been the way of things in high societies, where Royal or gentries boys "will be boys" to whatever material outcomes and the soiled woman pays the price, both with her honor stripped and her baby put up for adoption in secret.
When God called His creation 'good', He did not merely describe His creation, but He set the standard for what 'good' is within it. In other words, His creation is it's own moral imperative.
This might also induce an interesting discussion about societal rites of passage, and crossing into adulthood both in the physical and spiritual sense. Women's "adult threshold" is very clear and arguably thrust upon them by nature - in a physical sense: You're not bleeding downstairs, and then suddenly, you are. This threshold is not as clear in men, IMO. Thus many societies, create rites of passage for young men. As has already been mentioned several times, women bear and manifest all the physical consequences of sex; even when the physical consequences are stripped away, the spiritual ones remain. Do men manifest these consequence? Perhaps, but not nearly to the degree that women do - certainly not physically. While I whole heartedly believe adultery is wrong in both sexes, I wonder if men do not carry the same spiritual consequences. Since I am not a man, it's outside my experience and I can only speculate. Would love input from men on the spiritual consequences of sex outside marriage, personal or personally observed.
No doubt! I bet Klavan Sr would admit to barely knowing where his laptop on button is. And Klavan Jr, like so many Substackers, only has time to reply--at most--to the first couple of comments, and that's if his week is only massively busy not insanely so.
It does raise a question, however, of the value and time-stewardship of our making comments on Substack, given the fact that often we're just talking to ourselves. I think what I might do in the future is to simply do a Substack post of my own as a response to theirs (in general, not just re: the Klavan men!). I have ideas--some of them good-and since I'm a writer, it's frustrating to basically talk to myself in an empty room. Not sure if anyone else relates to that feeling or not. :)
Starting your own Substack is doable. But I never commented, but once or twice, thinking anyone other than other commenters were reading it. There are some very erudite posters here. Definitely a couple steps above most platforms.
I've got to agree with ross and peter on this one. Christ came to show us how to overcome the world. We are accountable as stewards and like was commented above - one of the main stewardships of men is to protect women and children. Using them as objects is not glorious to god.
The impulse to procreate is divine but must be kept within the bounds the lord has set.
I agree that virginity is different for men and women, with one caveat: the men who don't retain their virginity outside of heterosexual (that is, biblical) marriage always "make" a non-virgin out of some woman, someone's potential future wife. Orr at least, within hetersexual relations they do. So unless we're willing to sacrifice a percentage of women on the altar of men's extra-marital desire, we must say: men, posess your vessel with honor, if only to ensure there are enough virgins to go around.
Happy Independence Day holiday to my fellow American readers!
That's well put, and something I too was questioning. I don't disagree that virginity is a desired state for women before marriage, but it appears that by saying so in this context, the argument is that men need not be so? If that's the case, then what number of women are we acceptably tossing aside as fodder for men's extra-marital activity? Does that make sense to anyone?
No but it has been the way of things in high societies, where Royal or gentries boys "will be boys" to whatever material outcomes and the soiled woman pays the price, both with her honor stripped and her baby put up for adoption in secret.
Exactly correct, yeah.
Happy Independence Day to all US citizens. Cherish your country (I do) as it could very well disappear with the likes of Zohran Mamdani.
When God called His creation 'good', He did not merely describe His creation, but He set the standard for what 'good' is within it. In other words, His creation is it's own moral imperative.
"And the person who tries to do it on their own with a bunch of machines is likely to end up as a dystopian character.”"
He Shoots....He Scores!
"Deep down, we are still well able to distinguish right from wrong."
The Difference is people of Faith know Why.
This might also induce an interesting discussion about societal rites of passage, and crossing into adulthood both in the physical and spiritual sense. Women's "adult threshold" is very clear and arguably thrust upon them by nature - in a physical sense: You're not bleeding downstairs, and then suddenly, you are. This threshold is not as clear in men, IMO. Thus many societies, create rites of passage for young men. As has already been mentioned several times, women bear and manifest all the physical consequences of sex; even when the physical consequences are stripped away, the spiritual ones remain. Do men manifest these consequence? Perhaps, but not nearly to the degree that women do - certainly not physically. While I whole heartedly believe adultery is wrong in both sexes, I wonder if men do not carry the same spiritual consequences. Since I am not a man, it's outside my experience and I can only speculate. Would love input from men on the spiritual consequences of sex outside marriage, personal or personally observed.
I love hink the guys are on vacation so we're talking to ourselves. But, good company still!
I would be very surprised if the Klavans Sr & Jr monitor every comment thread. But they are probably on vacation.
No doubt! I bet Klavan Sr would admit to barely knowing where his laptop on button is. And Klavan Jr, like so many Substackers, only has time to reply--at most--to the first couple of comments, and that's if his week is only massively busy not insanely so.
It does raise a question, however, of the value and time-stewardship of our making comments on Substack, given the fact that often we're just talking to ourselves. I think what I might do in the future is to simply do a Substack post of my own as a response to theirs (in general, not just re: the Klavan men!). I have ideas--some of them good-and since I'm a writer, it's frustrating to basically talk to myself in an empty room. Not sure if anyone else relates to that feeling or not. :)
Starting your own Substack is doable. But I never commented, but once or twice, thinking anyone other than other commenters were reading it. There are some very erudite posters here. Definitely a couple steps above most platforms.
I have one already. :)
Also, tbf: I write for The American Mind sometimes, and Spencer, who is THE BEST editor in this world, is my editor. ;)
Sorry I misunderstood. And I’ll bet working with Spencer would be a joy.
Absolutely. He's a fantastic person, through and through. ♥️
To whoever is following these comments, please pray for the souls lost in the flooding in Texas and their families.
I've got to agree with ross and peter on this one. Christ came to show us how to overcome the world. We are accountable as stewards and like was commented above - one of the main stewardships of men is to protect women and children. Using them as objects is not glorious to god.
The impulse to procreate is divine but must be kept within the bounds the lord has set.
My only solace to the Klavanless week is this Substack, and there is no Monday letter. Goodbye my compatriots, I have succumbed to the abyss.
Virginity and patriotism. I like it:)