“I have no time to argue with materialists, autistics, or the French.”—The Klavan @ City-Journal.
This reminded me of Rowan Atkinson, when doing a skit on new arrivals to hell. One of the new arrivals was/were….the French, including the pause. Since then, I always pause when I say….the French. 🤣
The one I saw was from the late 90s or early oughts in NYC. No Americans in that one, or Trump, as you could imagine. At the end, he said, “over to you, Adolph.”
Found it. The pause before “…The French” is a bit better here. 😂
Wait! This paradigm is amazing to me! We must let God and neighbor "into the circle of your self-love". Meaning our self-love was an original good that can be redeemed? Like all the external counterfeits and corruptions that evil has perpetuated on creation and culture, original self-love is part of flourishing, part of the imago dei, but we have corrupted it internally into ego and selfishness?
So change "over slow time"... with "the willed purpose of letting God create in you" somehow seems more possible, like a re-weaving of the tapestry (Tim Keller picture of shalom), rather than a torching of all the threads. Thank you for this!
I agree. Love is the fuel that runs our new creation offensive. Yet there is and will always be a critical process in Agape. Exclusively celebrating Truth and rejecting wrong doing is a fundamental act of Agape. So what epistemological process in Agape can we practice that doesn’t involve theological reflection? The same Paul that wrote chapter 13 also wrote chapter 5.
Yes but exclusively celebrating truth over love is how we got into this mess called “science”. An monomoniacal pursuit of what can be seen and proven thru observation (truth in a way) caused us to ignore Love. The love that must be at the top of our spiritual hierarchy, THEN truth. I suppose they are both important but doesn’t or shouldn’t love govern truth and not the other way round?
It depends on how much you know and how much you love them. I'm talking about finding out more about someone you love makes you love them more. Finding out why they do something, or why they love something you never knew before, makes what they do or love, and thus anorher aspect about themselves, more lovable. You start to see the other person more clearly, which brings more love. But it can work with strangers too. I started an argument with someone once who I thought I was going to hate everything about, and at one point I asked them why they thought about whatever it was the way they thought about it. They then launched into a long story about childhood trauma and how it applied to the situation at hand and that made me see them and their position clearer, and even though I still disagreed with their position I felt more love for them and more sympathy for their position.
I already wrote this comment in the last letter about agape, but it seemed so applicable to this discussion, I thought I'd repeat it. I know I'm being redundant, but my hope is that it's to a good end.
With love comes true and intimate knowing of the person loved, which knowledge makes the person more lovable, which in turn brings more knowledge which makes the person more lovable. This cycle of love and knowing, delight in intimacy, is truly heaven itself. Since God is infinite Love, He can be known and loved by us forever, and we will, likewise, be known and loved infinitely, for all of eternity, by Him. The clearest the dark glass gets for us, besides moments given in rapturous vision, is the best moments in marriage of beholding the beloved. Agape is the connection between creature and Creator. Since that Creator, though, is more than mere maker, but rather, Love itself, when we allow ourselves to love with agape, we allow ourselves to be connected in a loving and knowing embrace, one in which we start to see others as they truly are. And even further than that, that even such love we have for others and God can't even come from us, but that we are some kind of mysterious vessels of knowledge and love that flow into us from God Himself, and we are given the choice of how much we will be filled.
My understanding is that Agape means willing the good of the other. It does not refer to having sympathy, empathy,, or just the warm fuzzies for the other.
There's probably a better answer to this, but on the face of it I would say sympathy and empathy leads to agape. Sympathy and empathy, I'm using interchangeably, are feelings that you share with someone, like walking in someone else's shoes. So when you sympathize with someone you can feel what they're going through or went through. Agape is the desire for someone's good for their own sake. It's a love that wants someone else's good with zero thought or interest about what that good does to or for you. So agape would be the best end to sympathizing with someone. At least that's how I understand it.
The next to last paragraph in Gone With the Windy reminds me of this in "Padre Pio's Spiritual Direction for Every Day," the March 4th entry: "Any mental picture of your life that forcuses on past sins is a lie and thus comes from the devil. Jesus loves you and has forgiven you your sins, so there is no room for having a downcast spirit. Whatever persuades you otherwise is truly a waste of time...if the mental picture of your life consists in what you can be or could be then it comes from God." In the context of the March 3rd as well as March 4th it's obvious that what you can be or could be does NOT refer to self-aggrandizing plans or day dreams. It's all about focussing on God and how to get closer to HIM :)
The thing is, there are rules. And breaking God’s rules is a lack of love for him. Jesus says over and over in John’s gospel, “if you love me, you will keep my commandments”.
So those who teach the faith have to teach the rules. And, just like children, we obey them in the beginning out of a combination of love and fear. The fear part is good, it is “the beginning of wisdom”. But as we grow, and our faith increases, the fear should diminish. But the rules are still there. And the rules about sex are non negotiable. Sexual sins are forgivable, if repented, as are all sins except that against the Holy Spirit.
“I have no time to argue with materialists, autistics, or the French.”—The Klavan @ City-Journal.
This reminded me of Rowan Atkinson, when doing a skit on new arrivals to hell. One of the new arrivals was/were….the French, including the pause. Since then, I always pause when I say….the French. 🤣
Rowan Atkinson: Toby the Devil
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrwIs10XvKA
The one I saw was from the late 90s or early oughts in NYC. No Americans in that one, or Trump, as you could imagine. At the end, he said, “over to you, Adolph.”
Found it. The pause before “…The French” is a bit better here. 😂
https://youtu.be/Ut116mBuPpg?feature=shared
Wait! This paradigm is amazing to me! We must let God and neighbor "into the circle of your self-love". Meaning our self-love was an original good that can be redeemed? Like all the external counterfeits and corruptions that evil has perpetuated on creation and culture, original self-love is part of flourishing, part of the imago dei, but we have corrupted it internally into ego and selfishness?
So change "over slow time"... with "the willed purpose of letting God create in you" somehow seems more possible, like a re-weaving of the tapestry (Tim Keller picture of shalom), rather than a torching of all the threads. Thank you for this!
I agree. Love is the fuel that runs our new creation offensive. Yet there is and will always be a critical process in Agape. Exclusively celebrating Truth and rejecting wrong doing is a fundamental act of Agape. So what epistemological process in Agape can we practice that doesn’t involve theological reflection? The same Paul that wrote chapter 13 also wrote chapter 5.
Yes but exclusively celebrating truth over love is how we got into this mess called “science”. An monomoniacal pursuit of what can be seen and proven thru observation (truth in a way) caused us to ignore Love. The love that must be at the top of our spiritual hierarchy, THEN truth. I suppose they are both important but doesn’t or shouldn’t love govern truth and not the other way round?
When Truth, as a noun, is partitioned from Love,as sentiment, we have Woke
Truth is dynamic in Agape. Truth operates as the white blood cells in the pumping heart of Agape
I would concur. And I like your metaphor. I shall borrow it if you don’t mind. lol PS Dont you just love the Klavans. What a team!
How does knowing someone make them more lovable?
It depends on how much you know and how much you love them. I'm talking about finding out more about someone you love makes you love them more. Finding out why they do something, or why they love something you never knew before, makes what they do or love, and thus anorher aspect about themselves, more lovable. You start to see the other person more clearly, which brings more love. But it can work with strangers too. I started an argument with someone once who I thought I was going to hate everything about, and at one point I asked them why they thought about whatever it was the way they thought about it. They then launched into a long story about childhood trauma and how it applied to the situation at hand and that made me see them and their position clearer, and even though I still disagreed with their position I felt more love for them and more sympathy for their position.
I already wrote this comment in the last letter about agape, but it seemed so applicable to this discussion, I thought I'd repeat it. I know I'm being redundant, but my hope is that it's to a good end.
With love comes true and intimate knowing of the person loved, which knowledge makes the person more lovable, which in turn brings more knowledge which makes the person more lovable. This cycle of love and knowing, delight in intimacy, is truly heaven itself. Since God is infinite Love, He can be known and loved by us forever, and we will, likewise, be known and loved infinitely, for all of eternity, by Him. The clearest the dark glass gets for us, besides moments given in rapturous vision, is the best moments in marriage of beholding the beloved. Agape is the connection between creature and Creator. Since that Creator, though, is more than mere maker, but rather, Love itself, when we allow ourselves to love with agape, we allow ourselves to be connected in a loving and knowing embrace, one in which we start to see others as they truly are. And even further than that, that even such love we have for others and God can't even come from us, but that we are some kind of mysterious vessels of knowledge and love that flow into us from God Himself, and we are given the choice of how much we will be filled.
Is Agape different from sympathy or empathy?
My understanding is that Agape means willing the good of the other. It does not refer to having sympathy, empathy,, or just the warm fuzzies for the other.
It a non self referential fatherly love
I like the way you put that :)
There's probably a better answer to this, but on the face of it I would say sympathy and empathy leads to agape. Sympathy and empathy, I'm using interchangeably, are feelings that you share with someone, like walking in someone else's shoes. So when you sympathize with someone you can feel what they're going through or went through. Agape is the desire for someone's good for their own sake. It's a love that wants someone else's good with zero thought or interest about what that good does to or for you. So agape would be the best end to sympathizing with someone. At least that's how I understand it.
The next to last paragraph in Gone With the Windy reminds me of this in "Padre Pio's Spiritual Direction for Every Day," the March 4th entry: "Any mental picture of your life that forcuses on past sins is a lie and thus comes from the devil. Jesus loves you and has forgiven you your sins, so there is no room for having a downcast spirit. Whatever persuades you otherwise is truly a waste of time...if the mental picture of your life consists in what you can be or could be then it comes from God." In the context of the March 3rd as well as March 4th it's obvious that what you can be or could be does NOT refer to self-aggrandizing plans or day dreams. It's all about focussing on God and how to get closer to HIM :)
The thing is, there are rules. And breaking God’s rules is a lack of love for him. Jesus says over and over in John’s gospel, “if you love me, you will keep my commandments”.
So those who teach the faith have to teach the rules. And, just like children, we obey them in the beginning out of a combination of love and fear. The fear part is good, it is “the beginning of wisdom”. But as we grow, and our faith increases, the fear should diminish. But the rules are still there. And the rules about sex are non negotiable. Sexual sins are forgivable, if repented, as are all sins except that against the Holy Spirit.
Beautiful.