Thank you. The references to Luke and Matthew in the post the other day and now this…the soft kisses of humility are soothing… I have been guilty of stridency and it’s not a happy state of mind. Thank you for the invitation to drop my arrogance.
It is the “knowing the one true God which is the difficult part. I wish I were wise enough to understand what God wants of me and to steer clear of the multitude of ways to stray, hence the broad and wide path to perdition and the narrow one to salvation, following Jesus. Not so simple. I spent a year studying Bioethics under the National Catholic Bioethics Center. It draws upon the Judeochristian tradition of moral teaching which stretches back for thousands of years. I had been involved with bioethics for decades, but drawing upon scholars with wisdom and teaching showed me just how little I knew. There is a great deal to learn from the wisdom of others.
I believe that this is what religion is. It is run by man, and therefore is corruptible, but may also be the repository for great wisdom. This is why we must all use our discernment with any teaching and must place it in context with revealed truth (the Bible) as well. This is not “sola scriptural”, but is a great tenet certainly of Roman Catholicism (sorry, the one I know). We talk of Scripture and Tradition as our two great pillars of knowledge. Tradition, with the capital T would be the revelations given and great writings of those wiser and holier than I. Our “doctors of the Church”, such as Augustine and Aquinas, to great recent leaders such as St. Theresa of Calcutta and Pope St. John Paul II. I rely on them and many others, and try to avoid the false voices and false prophets.
I hold no grudges against the Mormons. They are a diligent and hard-working people, and I disagree with their religious tenets, but am happy to know and work with them.
In deference of Klavan the Elder, I will not start any holy wars. I’ll leave the virginity of Mary to another time. Saints do appear in all ages. Boy,do we need them now. We have had the great fortune of being alive for some (JPII, Theresa, to name a few). Approaching any endeavor to commune with the Almighty must be undertaken with humility. I stink at humility. This is why I was given a wife.
I certainly agree but rely on God's Word to allow me to start "working out my salvation with fear and trembling", also knowing God is "LOVE"!, and He knows each of our "heart's and our entire selves, ,better than we do for sure.
Absolutely, but I know that I can fool myself better than I can fool anyone else. God is Love, as He said, and no greater love than to give… This is the definition of love, which is a virtue, not merely an emotion as too commonly depicted. Willing the good of another over the good for oneself.
Love, but verify! I can fool myself into misreading or misunderstanding anything, and can’t rely merely on my belief alone. If other reputable sources (such as great religious thinkers or my wife) agrees with my insights, I am far more relieved.
That's true for me as well my wife of 58 years is also such a "beacon", and yet so humble. I depend on the Bible to confirm itself by itself along with my wife and other trusted sources as as Brother Klavan & son!
Well articulated, Brother Klavan. Ultimately I think it's our pride (SIN) that causes people to fight and do the unthinkable in the name of religion. We all want to "be right." But, God doesn't need us to fight those battles. Instead, we need to be fighting the true enemy.
The truest test of this always plays out with the Mormons. You can find Christians disputing all sorts of tenants of the gospel but they are usually unified against Mormons being Christians. Certain prominent Christian and conservative figures go out of their way to express this. One would think it’s easy to make a distinction between including the Satanists who deliberately do not worship Christ and the Mormons who do (hence their name the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints). But is a church truly capable of the nuance of Christ being the fulcrum? …especially while we’re calling on people to develop their own personal rituals. Can we cultivate a society that has a strong personal faith, practice, and relationship with God…without becoming dogmatic?
I think the scriptures teach the best way to a good life. The question of who gets to heaven is a separate question. I don’t have an answer for either.
The biggest thing I struggle with is people who have never known Jesus due to a simple function of geography. Why should souls born in Fiji prior to their conversion be denied entry to heaven? Their parents were cannibals, so why wouldn’t they be? That’s my biggest spiritual sticking point and the one I have never been able to get a satisfactory answer to.
I can only imagine Jesus sorted the wheat from the chaff during his three days in Hell. Being outside of time and our laws of thermodynamics, their experience in hell could well have been an instantaneous meeting with Jesus after death.
I take hope in the fact that Jesus came for everyone. Not just those with access to a bible.
Some Catholic theology has informed me in my ongoing struggle to understand this same question. First, loosely speaking, their idea that in order to be culpable for sin you must be committing it while personally knowing that it is wrong. I think about all the people I love who have passed and who were not believing Christians—they honestly didn’t believe because they didn’t know that it was TRUE. The idea that we are created and loved and only have to accept God’s love for us to go on to Paradise sounds literally too good to be true.
Secondly, I have seen priests/Popes express that God knows us and our hearts, and will take our background into perfect account.
Who am I to hate if I can't hate other people for their religion? I may be forced to turn my ire inward to hate the worst parts of myself. No Thank You!
We can’t have friendly conversations about religion because we are afraid. I’m thinking that maybe all fear reduces to fear of suffering and death.
If I am not religious, I am afraid that if God is real, then my suffering increases in this life because God, or His followers, will constrain my will— and that will lead to obligations like charity and chastity.
If I am religious, I am afraid that if I get it wrong, I will suffer damnation.
You shouldn’t need to fear damnation. We have a conscience to avoid that. Deep down, we know when we’re on the wrong path. Everyone does. Most of all, the aggressive Atheist types know this. Denial brings out the worst in people.
Whether we “should” fear damnation or not, it seems possible to me that people would not get angry when discussing doctrine unless they felt defensive—like they have to get it exactly right, or they will be in trouble.
That’s marvellous. I have an almost creationist mother and drifted from the church because despite her supposed superior Christianity, she was cheating on my Dad for five years.
It was my Dad who drew me back to Christianity, rather ironically, by dying of cancer. The strength and dignity he displayed and almost excitement he had for going to heaven was incredibly inspiring.
I find results usually show the best method over time. This is the reason for me going back to Anglicanism despite being curious about catholics and orthodox.
Catholic Church was responsible for the child abuse scandal and orthodox countries are in Eastern European countries which have appalling records given the communism there
However, I think God split the church, or at least allowed it to happen. I think all denominations of Christianity are equally valid in the eyes of God. I believe the church split to allow the variance of human nature to find a home in the church.
My wife is much more evangelical than I am. I attend her church after going to the early service in Ulm Munster. It’s too “happy clappy” for me and the strict Lutheran service is too stiff for her. But I find both services have their positives and negatives.
I am no wishy washy church lib but I honestly believe that fearing hell because of doctrinal misinterpretation is unnecessary. Fearing hell because of a life of sin however is just plain common sense.
We have a lot in common in our approach to worship! I am not currently attending a church but feel most comfortable in the Anglican Church, with the richness of history and liturgy. Sometimes I go to a Catholic mass with other people and that’s also moving, but I am conscious of being a non-confirmed outsider. Meanwhile to my astonishment, our daughter and husband have found a non-denominational evangelical church since they moved to Texas a few years ago, and when I am staying there I usually go with them. Definitely miss the liturgy and think it’s too much of a show, BUT I find truth and sustenance there also.
I like the fact it’s an extended sermon. I don’t really view it as a church service. It’s more like a bible group with pop music. I would go to an Anglican church but the nearest one is in Stuttgart, over an hour away, and from the website, appears to be quite woke. Whilst people may disagree over scripture, woke definitely has no place in the church whatsoever.
The Lutheran church has quite a beautiful liturgy and much of it is sung. Unfortunately, my German is quite poor, so I struggle to understand the sermon. The evangelical church has a translator which is often my wife!
It’s so lovely to have a civilised conversation across the internet. Something very rare.
Didn’t realize that you were in Germany. Ausgezeichnet! I have retained a little of my college German classes. Your characterization of the evangelical service as Bible study with pop music is perfect. And I agree completely about the importance of the ability to have civil conversations—sadly lacking on the internet and more and more in everyday life.
I honestly don’t know. I look at how angry people get when discussing the most banal of things on social media and I can only conclude it’s human nature to get angry about such things. I hope no one would fear damnation over a misinterpretation of scripture given that we are endowed with a wide range of IQ as a species.
Having never actually been an atheist, though definitely a very bad Christian at times, I can’t definitively say what makes them angry but I suspect fear plays a part.
Hey, that’s an excellent point re: doctrinally perfect performance and the fact that even functional adults can have a very low IQ and general inability to think abstractly. I’ve thought about salvation and the fact that so many people will never have heard the Gospel, and/or never have heard of it in a meaningful context.
I was raised by a non-militant atheist mother—we didn’t talk about religion at all but I could tell that she didn’t think God was real or that religion made sense. I assumed that believers were just in a delusion of sorts but I kept feeling the call of the numinous and eventually came to Christianity through some personal experiences and then, intellectually, through CS Lewis and a little bit of M. Scott Peck.
Romans 11:5 "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."
God has sent us a "remnant" to make sure His word reaches everyone. It is not only okay; it is necessary to discuss God, Jesus, the Bible, and related subjects. Words should not be violent or bring about violence. God cannot use angry people.
Proverbs 14:17 "He that is soon angry dealeth foolishly:"
thanks for the always stimulating and interesting conversations we are privy to. In my opinion religion is a or the cause of violence but it is as you state a human input to religion that makes it so! In my opinion, again, God desires "relationship" not religion , and man-made morality(mostly pride), added to God's truth encourages that lie to adulterate God's truth and thus we have so many religions spawned by man rather than the one true religion of "knowing" God in an intimate relational way and co-creating, with Him, what is in Heaven here in the earth, when we do, until He returns, is a good/Godly thing! John 17:3---"knowing the one true God"...,
Jesus said “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” As long as we don’t compromise on that, discussion with other religions is a good thing.
Yes! This is what makes me believe you when you say you are on God's errand - and I would say the same about spencer. You have both helped me to understand my own religion in a deeper and more meaningful sense. I often thank god for you in my prayers. It is also why the Exodus series on DW is so relevant!
There are variations in the translation of Luke 2:14, when the angels appear and announce the birth of Christ to the shepherds, but one of them is "Glory to God in the highest, and on Earth peace to men of goodwill."
It would seem then that God honors goodwill among people, and we should be able to recognize it, act in it, and honor it in others as well. So much divisiveness comes from an inability to recognize the difference between good and bad will motivations.
Thank you. The references to Luke and Matthew in the post the other day and now this…the soft kisses of humility are soothing… I have been guilty of stridency and it’s not a happy state of mind. Thank you for the invitation to drop my arrogance.
It is the “knowing the one true God which is the difficult part. I wish I were wise enough to understand what God wants of me and to steer clear of the multitude of ways to stray, hence the broad and wide path to perdition and the narrow one to salvation, following Jesus. Not so simple. I spent a year studying Bioethics under the National Catholic Bioethics Center. It draws upon the Judeochristian tradition of moral teaching which stretches back for thousands of years. I had been involved with bioethics for decades, but drawing upon scholars with wisdom and teaching showed me just how little I knew. There is a great deal to learn from the wisdom of others.
I believe that this is what religion is. It is run by man, and therefore is corruptible, but may also be the repository for great wisdom. This is why we must all use our discernment with any teaching and must place it in context with revealed truth (the Bible) as well. This is not “sola scriptural”, but is a great tenet certainly of Roman Catholicism (sorry, the one I know). We talk of Scripture and Tradition as our two great pillars of knowledge. Tradition, with the capital T would be the revelations given and great writings of those wiser and holier than I. Our “doctors of the Church”, such as Augustine and Aquinas, to great recent leaders such as St. Theresa of Calcutta and Pope St. John Paul II. I rely on them and many others, and try to avoid the false voices and false prophets.
I hold no grudges against the Mormons. They are a diligent and hard-working people, and I disagree with their religious tenets, but am happy to know and work with them.
In deference of Klavan the Elder, I will not start any holy wars. I’ll leave the virginity of Mary to another time. Saints do appear in all ages. Boy,do we need them now. We have had the great fortune of being alive for some (JPII, Theresa, to name a few). Approaching any endeavor to commune with the Almighty must be undertaken with humility. I stink at humility. This is why I was given a wife.
I certainly agree but rely on God's Word to allow me to start "working out my salvation with fear and trembling", also knowing God is "LOVE"!, and He knows each of our "heart's and our entire selves, ,better than we do for sure.
Absolutely, but I know that I can fool myself better than I can fool anyone else. God is Love, as He said, and no greater love than to give… This is the definition of love, which is a virtue, not merely an emotion as too commonly depicted. Willing the good of another over the good for oneself.
Love, but verify! I can fool myself into misreading or misunderstanding anything, and can’t rely merely on my belief alone. If other reputable sources (such as great religious thinkers or my wife) agrees with my insights, I am far more relieved.
That's true for me as well my wife of 58 years is also such a "beacon", and yet so humble. I depend on the Bible to confirm itself by itself along with my wife and other trusted sources as as Brother Klavan & son!
Well articulated, Brother Klavan. Ultimately I think it's our pride (SIN) that causes people to fight and do the unthinkable in the name of religion. We all want to "be right." But, God doesn't need us to fight those battles. Instead, we need to be fighting the true enemy.
The truest test of this always plays out with the Mormons. You can find Christians disputing all sorts of tenants of the gospel but they are usually unified against Mormons being Christians. Certain prominent Christian and conservative figures go out of their way to express this. One would think it’s easy to make a distinction between including the Satanists who deliberately do not worship Christ and the Mormons who do (hence their name the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints). But is a church truly capable of the nuance of Christ being the fulcrum? …especially while we’re calling on people to develop their own personal rituals. Can we cultivate a society that has a strong personal faith, practice, and relationship with God…without becoming dogmatic?
I think the scriptures teach the best way to a good life. The question of who gets to heaven is a separate question. I don’t have an answer for either.
The biggest thing I struggle with is people who have never known Jesus due to a simple function of geography. Why should souls born in Fiji prior to their conversion be denied entry to heaven? Their parents were cannibals, so why wouldn’t they be? That’s my biggest spiritual sticking point and the one I have never been able to get a satisfactory answer to.
I can only imagine Jesus sorted the wheat from the chaff during his three days in Hell. Being outside of time and our laws of thermodynamics, their experience in hell could well have been an instantaneous meeting with Jesus after death.
I take hope in the fact that Jesus came for everyone. Not just those with access to a bible.
Some Catholic theology has informed me in my ongoing struggle to understand this same question. First, loosely speaking, their idea that in order to be culpable for sin you must be committing it while personally knowing that it is wrong. I think about all the people I love who have passed and who were not believing Christians—they honestly didn’t believe because they didn’t know that it was TRUE. The idea that we are created and loved and only have to accept God’s love for us to go on to Paradise sounds literally too good to be true.
Secondly, I have seen priests/Popes express that God knows us and our hearts, and will take our background into perfect account.
Who am I to hate if I can't hate other people for their religion? I may be forced to turn my ire inward to hate the worst parts of myself. No Thank You!
We can’t have friendly conversations about religion because we are afraid. I’m thinking that maybe all fear reduces to fear of suffering and death.
If I am not religious, I am afraid that if God is real, then my suffering increases in this life because God, or His followers, will constrain my will— and that will lead to obligations like charity and chastity.
If I am religious, I am afraid that if I get it wrong, I will suffer damnation.
You shouldn’t need to fear damnation. We have a conscience to avoid that. Deep down, we know when we’re on the wrong path. Everyone does. Most of all, the aggressive Atheist types know this. Denial brings out the worst in people.
Whether we “should” fear damnation or not, it seems possible to me that people would not get angry when discussing doctrine unless they felt defensive—like they have to get it exactly right, or they will be in trouble.
That’s marvellous. I have an almost creationist mother and drifted from the church because despite her supposed superior Christianity, she was cheating on my Dad for five years.
It was my Dad who drew me back to Christianity, rather ironically, by dying of cancer. The strength and dignity he displayed and almost excitement he had for going to heaven was incredibly inspiring.
I find results usually show the best method over time. This is the reason for me going back to Anglicanism despite being curious about catholics and orthodox.
Catholic Church was responsible for the child abuse scandal and orthodox countries are in Eastern European countries which have appalling records given the communism there
However, I think God split the church, or at least allowed it to happen. I think all denominations of Christianity are equally valid in the eyes of God. I believe the church split to allow the variance of human nature to find a home in the church.
My wife is much more evangelical than I am. I attend her church after going to the early service in Ulm Munster. It’s too “happy clappy” for me and the strict Lutheran service is too stiff for her. But I find both services have their positives and negatives.
I am no wishy washy church lib but I honestly believe that fearing hell because of doctrinal misinterpretation is unnecessary. Fearing hell because of a life of sin however is just plain common sense.
We have a lot in common in our approach to worship! I am not currently attending a church but feel most comfortable in the Anglican Church, with the richness of history and liturgy. Sometimes I go to a Catholic mass with other people and that’s also moving, but I am conscious of being a non-confirmed outsider. Meanwhile to my astonishment, our daughter and husband have found a non-denominational evangelical church since they moved to Texas a few years ago, and when I am staying there I usually go with them. Definitely miss the liturgy and think it’s too much of a show, BUT I find truth and sustenance there also.
I like the fact it’s an extended sermon. I don’t really view it as a church service. It’s more like a bible group with pop music. I would go to an Anglican church but the nearest one is in Stuttgart, over an hour away, and from the website, appears to be quite woke. Whilst people may disagree over scripture, woke definitely has no place in the church whatsoever.
The Lutheran church has quite a beautiful liturgy and much of it is sung. Unfortunately, my German is quite poor, so I struggle to understand the sermon. The evangelical church has a translator which is often my wife!
It’s so lovely to have a civilised conversation across the internet. Something very rare.
Didn’t realize that you were in Germany. Ausgezeichnet! I have retained a little of my college German classes. Your characterization of the evangelical service as Bible study with pop music is perfect. And I agree completely about the importance of the ability to have civil conversations—sadly lacking on the internet and more and more in everyday life.
I honestly don’t know. I look at how angry people get when discussing the most banal of things on social media and I can only conclude it’s human nature to get angry about such things. I hope no one would fear damnation over a misinterpretation of scripture given that we are endowed with a wide range of IQ as a species.
Having never actually been an atheist, though definitely a very bad Christian at times, I can’t definitively say what makes them angry but I suspect fear plays a part.
Hey, that’s an excellent point re: doctrinally perfect performance and the fact that even functional adults can have a very low IQ and general inability to think abstractly. I’ve thought about salvation and the fact that so many people will never have heard the Gospel, and/or never have heard of it in a meaningful context.
I was raised by a non-militant atheist mother—we didn’t talk about religion at all but I could tell that she didn’t think God was real or that religion made sense. I assumed that believers were just in a delusion of sorts but I kept feeling the call of the numinous and eventually came to Christianity through some personal experiences and then, intellectually, through CS Lewis and a little bit of M. Scott Peck.
*them being atheists.
Romans 11:5 "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."
God has sent us a "remnant" to make sure His word reaches everyone. It is not only okay; it is necessary to discuss God, Jesus, the Bible, and related subjects. Words should not be violent or bring about violence. God cannot use angry people.
Proverbs 14:17 "He that is soon angry dealeth foolishly:"
thanks for the always stimulating and interesting conversations we are privy to. In my opinion religion is a or the cause of violence but it is as you state a human input to religion that makes it so! In my opinion, again, God desires "relationship" not religion , and man-made morality(mostly pride), added to God's truth encourages that lie to adulterate God's truth and thus we have so many religions spawned by man rather than the one true religion of "knowing" God in an intimate relational way and co-creating, with Him, what is in Heaven here in the earth, when we do, until He returns, is a good/Godly thing! John 17:3---"knowing the one true God"...,
“Is there any reason not to discuss religion with a friendly, flexible and open mind?”
Open-mindedness and conviction are delicately balanced.
Jesus said “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” As long as we don’t compromise on that, discussion with other religions is a good thing.
That first paragraph! 😂🤪🤣 I do love how you often start up with the hilarious and/or absurd and use that for the springboard of your argument.
Yes! This is what makes me believe you when you say you are on God's errand - and I would say the same about spencer. You have both helped me to understand my own religion in a deeper and more meaningful sense. I often thank god for you in my prayers. It is also why the Exodus series on DW is so relevant!
There are variations in the translation of Luke 2:14, when the angels appear and announce the birth of Christ to the shepherds, but one of them is "Glory to God in the highest, and on Earth peace to men of goodwill."
It would seem then that God honors goodwill among people, and we should be able to recognize it, act in it, and honor it in others as well. So much divisiveness comes from an inability to recognize the difference between good and bad will motivations.