Low blow, Klavan. Fully agree that the molestation scandal terribly harmed the RCC, and that the handling of the crimes was awful, with thousands of lives harmed or ruined for those children. Turns out that the numbers of molesters in the population of priests closely mirrors that of the general population. It is not unique to celibacy and certainly not unique to the religion which teaches transubstantiation.
This statement is also a bit of a non sequitur as well. A friend and I were discussing this issue years ago and was concerned that the scandal of child sexual abuse would harm the teaching authority of the church. That authority the RCC believes is divinely ordained, but the teaching weight given by the public would clearly be harmed. So whether what happens in the consecration is Transubstantiation, consubstantiation or merely a memorial, the status of evil humans being involved with the institutions that profess these beliefs is not material. There is much rot in the RCC as with any human endeavor, but that is as old as mankind. The ill acts of those who profess belief does not negate those beliefs, but those who act ill.
I am not arguing that other people are less inclined to listen to a church that does not have its own house in order. I’ve watched this now for decades in my diocese, painful as it has been, and had as a patient one who caused such harm, and got to know him to some degree. His remorse was painful to watch, and he told me once that what he had done was unforgivable by God. Over the course of a discussion, he came to understand that nothing is impossible for God, even that forgiveness, although a terrible atonement would await. In proclaiming his unforgivable state, in a way he was putting his judgement over God’s.
I believe in transubstantiation no less despite the sins and crimes of 2000+years of humanity trying its hardest to sully the word of God. I’m just trying my hardest to not lead anyone astray by any actions of mine, and yes, by not judging.
With respect, I disagree with you here. It's not a low blow and I'm not attacking the Catholic church - that is, I'm attacking the church's actions in this specific instance, but not casting aspersions on its theology. This is what Paul talks and talks about. "Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works... do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus... I try to please everyone in everything I do, not seeking my own advantage, but that of many, that they may be saved... Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ..." People always quote these things as if he's telling you how to avoid judgement. But he's telling you how to sell the Gospels. What would he have said about the widespread rape and cover-up and how it portrayed Catholic doctrine?
First, thank you for responding. I concur with your condemnation of the slow, incomplete and often obfuscatory actions of many in power. I react viscerally to not only the crimes, not only the coverups but also the attacks on those who have tried and continue to try to correct what has been done in the past. I have known 2 bishops trying to answer for these past actions of others. They were both often unjustly attacked for their responses even when they were bound to take the advice of other professionals (in this case psychologists and others who actually recommended keeping the offending clergy in place; the reasons are now clearly driven by something other than the good of the victims as well as the perpetrators). Had they not taken the advice of these “experts” they would have been roundly criticized for ignoring the experts. Our present governor has made great political hay for attacking the RCC for these abuses, and he did not attack only those who allowed the abuses, but also those who were actively attempting to correct and prevent such abuse in the future.
It is simple to say now that the “experts” had an ulterior motive, and perhaps those in power at that time should have rejected such poor advice. Perhaps when the CDC and the NIH came out and said that the COVID vaccinations were great, and conferred lasting immunity and had no side effects, we medical professionals should have been more circumspect.
Certainly I expect more from my church leaders than they had shown in the past, and they caused great harm. But those who came after these leaders have also been tarred with the same brush, and that is uncalled for.
Well said , perhaps René should’ve painted a tobacco plant in the 1st place then he could’ve stuck that in his pipe & smoked it .
Then we wouldn’t be going around & around & around & did I mention around arguing “its a pipe” - “no it’s not” “oh yes it is”- “oh no it’s not” - like children shouting at widow Twankey in a Christmas pantomime . Which would then be inevitabley followed by the usual Kerfuffle - where punches will be thrown- then exhausted back to - “oh yes it is” - “oh no it isn’t. Which some wise-guy some where said “that’s the entirety of human history in a nutshell”.
Hey Great Wizard Klavan, speaking of characters that don't exist, I ordered and read all your current Cameron Winter novels, and pre-ordered the next. Despite not being a real person, I love him and hope he gets a happy ending...maybe not just yet - I want more stories - but eventually.
Low blow, Klavan. Fully agree that the molestation scandal terribly harmed the RCC, and that the handling of the crimes was awful, with thousands of lives harmed or ruined for those children. Turns out that the numbers of molesters in the population of priests closely mirrors that of the general population. It is not unique to celibacy and certainly not unique to the religion which teaches transubstantiation.
This statement is also a bit of a non sequitur as well. A friend and I were discussing this issue years ago and was concerned that the scandal of child sexual abuse would harm the teaching authority of the church. That authority the RCC believes is divinely ordained, but the teaching weight given by the public would clearly be harmed. So whether what happens in the consecration is Transubstantiation, consubstantiation or merely a memorial, the status of evil humans being involved with the institutions that profess these beliefs is not material. There is much rot in the RCC as with any human endeavor, but that is as old as mankind. The ill acts of those who profess belief does not negate those beliefs, but those who act ill.
I am not arguing that other people are less inclined to listen to a church that does not have its own house in order. I’ve watched this now for decades in my diocese, painful as it has been, and had as a patient one who caused such harm, and got to know him to some degree. His remorse was painful to watch, and he told me once that what he had done was unforgivable by God. Over the course of a discussion, he came to understand that nothing is impossible for God, even that forgiveness, although a terrible atonement would await. In proclaiming his unforgivable state, in a way he was putting his judgement over God’s.
I believe in transubstantiation no less despite the sins and crimes of 2000+years of humanity trying its hardest to sully the word of God. I’m just trying my hardest to not lead anyone astray by any actions of mine, and yes, by not judging.
With respect, I disagree with you here. It's not a low blow and I'm not attacking the Catholic church - that is, I'm attacking the church's actions in this specific instance, but not casting aspersions on its theology. This is what Paul talks and talks about. "Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works... do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus... I try to please everyone in everything I do, not seeking my own advantage, but that of many, that they may be saved... Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ..." People always quote these things as if he's telling you how to avoid judgement. But he's telling you how to sell the Gospels. What would he have said about the widespread rape and cover-up and how it portrayed Catholic doctrine?
First, thank you for responding. I concur with your condemnation of the slow, incomplete and often obfuscatory actions of many in power. I react viscerally to not only the crimes, not only the coverups but also the attacks on those who have tried and continue to try to correct what has been done in the past. I have known 2 bishops trying to answer for these past actions of others. They were both often unjustly attacked for their responses even when they were bound to take the advice of other professionals (in this case psychologists and others who actually recommended keeping the offending clergy in place; the reasons are now clearly driven by something other than the good of the victims as well as the perpetrators). Had they not taken the advice of these “experts” they would have been roundly criticized for ignoring the experts. Our present governor has made great political hay for attacking the RCC for these abuses, and he did not attack only those who allowed the abuses, but also those who were actively attempting to correct and prevent such abuse in the future.
It is simple to say now that the “experts” had an ulterior motive, and perhaps those in power at that time should have rejected such poor advice. Perhaps when the CDC and the NIH came out and said that the COVID vaccinations were great, and conferred lasting immunity and had no side effects, we medical professionals should have been more circumspect.
Certainly I expect more from my church leaders than they had shown in the past, and they caused great harm. But those who came after these leaders have also been tarred with the same brush, and that is uncalled for.
Well said , perhaps René should’ve painted a tobacco plant in the 1st place then he could’ve stuck that in his pipe & smoked it .
Then we wouldn’t be going around & around & around & did I mention around arguing “its a pipe” - “no it’s not” “oh yes it is”- “oh no it’s not” - like children shouting at widow Twankey in a Christmas pantomime . Which would then be inevitabley followed by the usual Kerfuffle - where punches will be thrown- then exhausted back to - “oh yes it is” - “oh no it isn’t. Which some wise-guy some where said “that’s the entirety of human history in a nutshell”.
Hey Great Wizard Klavan, speaking of characters that don't exist, I ordered and read all your current Cameron Winter novels, and pre-ordered the next. Despite not being a real person, I love him and hope he gets a happy ending...maybe not just yet - I want more stories - but eventually.
Beautiful!
Thank you Klavan